Tim Smith

My shame is an ocean.

Experimental biology. Look at the effects of their removal. Gigantic. Begin with William Ricker and John Gottschalk, 1941, An Experiment in Removing Coarse Fish from a Lake, Transactions of the American Fisheries Society, Vol. 70, pp. 382-390 (a general fish removal, but dominated by carp that allowed vegetation to return and resulted in a massive rebound in all game fish species) and proceed forward to the many modern ecological studies that point to huge effects of carp. A couple are pasted here. Pardon the sloppiness of the graphics below but there are dozens more if you care to read the literature. Once they are dense (and in some places they can't accomplish that, but in others they run amok) they remove vegetation and make clear systems cloudy. The outward effects of that reduce other populations of fish, waterfowl, and other types of species too. Effects of adult common carp (Cyprinus carpio) on multiple trophic levels in shallow mesocosms Joseph J Parkos III, Victor J Santucci, Jr., David H Wah Canadian Journal of Fisheries and Aquatic Sciences, 2003, 60(2): 182-192, 10.1139/f03-011 ABSTRACT We examined the effects of adult common carp (Cyprinus carpio) on shallow aquatic ecosystems and compared the effects with those of a native benthic fish, channel catfish (Ictalurus punctatus). Experimental ponds contained enclosures (0.06 ha) with a low carp biomass (174 kg·ha1), high carp biomass (476 kg·ha1), high catfish biomass (416 kg·ha1), and no fish. We measured abiotic factors (turbidity, suspended solids, total phosphorus), as well as effects on adjacent trophic levels (aquatic macrophytes, zooplankton, and aquatic macroinvertebrates) from July to September. Common carp was positively related to total phosphorus, turbidity, suspended solids, and zooplankton biomass, and negatively related to macrophyte and macroinvertebrate abundance. Suspended solids in the carp treatments consisted primarily of inorganic particles. Carp were either positively or negatively related to phytoplankton, depending on zooplankton abundance. A high biomass of carp had greater effect on nutrients, turbidity, and suspended solids than a low biomass. Channel catfish was positively related to total phosphorus concentrations and altered zooplankton composition, but did not affect turbidity, suspended solids, macroinvertebrates, and macrophytes. These results suggest that common carp have a stronger influence on water quality and aquatic community structure than benthic fish native to North America. Effects of common carp (Cyprinus carpio) on macrophytes and invertebrate communities in a shallow lake S. A. MILLER and T. A. CROWL Article first published online: 18 NOV 2005 DOI: 10.1111/j.1365-2427.2005.01477.x Effects of Common Carp on Aquatic Ecosystems 80 Years after “Carp as a Dominant”: Ecological Insights for Fisheries Management Abstract The introduction of fishes into habitats outside their native range may result in dramatic ecosystem alterations. Circumpolar introductions of common carp Cyprinus carpio commonly induce perturbations to shallow lakes, inducing a phase shift from clear to turbid water. Cahn (1929) first reported a phase shift following common carp introduction. Since then, ecologists have sought to understand ecosystem responses to common carp perturbation. We present a synthesis on how common carp can affect aquatic ecosystems through a middle-out framework due to their capability to alter bottom-up and top-down processes. Common carp affect bottom-up processes by modifying nutrient and turbidity concentrations and phytoplankton abundance and diversity through benthic foraging, whereas zooplankton and benthic invertebrates can be affected by top-down processes through predation and reduced foraging efficiency. Common carp also reduce aquatic macrophytes that may switch lakes from the clear to turbid water equilibrium. Restoration efforts seeking to return ecosystems to the clear water state have attempted to remove common carp populations through numerous methods with varying success. Restoration efforts should focus on entire ecosystems (humans, habitats, and biota) in conjunction with common carp reductions to achieve the greatest success at minimizing the effects of common carp and to return lakes to the clear water state. Reviews in Fisheries Science Volume 17, Issue 4, 2009

In the case of the IUCN, it's strictly a global picture for these levels of threatened and endangered status. Or at least I thought it was. Still rather shocked that carp from anywhere could have made the list. All those things you listed are invasive, Wayne. A couple of centuries is barely a heartbeat in ecological time. You can go down the list and with the possible exception of Lake Michigan chinook, you can tick off the names of multiple valuable native species that are being displaced and pressured by the invasives you named.

I guess I don't know much about the conservation status of common carp in Europe, but it seems unlikely they'd let their most prized freshwater game fish fall into serious decline. The tarpon issue is one I've seen first hand. Studies have shown very high mortality of tarpon after a long fight. Sixty percent and above. They fight too hard and too long to just swim away when they're done. "Catch and release" for them is really often "catch, release, sink to the bottom and get eaten by a shark". Still, I was not aware they were declining as a species and the prospect seems dubious to me. Usually the best thing that can happen to a species is to become a highly prized game fish. We've done well by our favorites.

I just took a trip to southeastern Colorado to the Comanche National Grassland and Picketwire Canyon. This site includes the largest fossilized trackway for dinosaurs in North America. It was a 10.6 mile hike in the heat, but a pretty awesome day overall. I think a late September trip would be ideal. Very remote and rugged. Not much fishing in the area but still a great venue.

It makes sense to find a tutor, but do it through a friendship with someone who is an experienced angler and enjoys your company. You'll learn their skills and in time you'll be able to contribute to their knowledge as well. It might pay off for both of you in the larger scheme of things over the long term. Maybe there's some one at your church or work who might fit the bill. Maybe someone here on OAF lives close to you and would be willing to bring you along. Guides? Yuck. Also, is it really bank fishing you're doing? At a minimum, you're going to have to wade if you want to fish most spots properly. And an effective fishing boat is not out of reach. If you can afford gas money, you can buy a decent kayak that will open up a world of water to you. I've fished everything from open water on the Gulf of Mexico to tiny little ribbons of water from a kayak that I could carry on top of the smallest car or in the back of the most modest short bed truck. Most of my trophy fish came using that approach. It's ten years old and still as seaworthy as the day I bought it. Probably the best fishing investment I've ever made.

Except that when common carp tear out vegetation, that removes habitat for invertebrates and reduces the food resource even more than they could by simply eating their dinner. No other North American fish does this the way they do this. Common carp are a disaster.

I just don't see how a sportsman can even dream of supporting this idea. This summer my son walked from Denver to Durango on the Colorado Trail...485 miles through wilderness without a person or house or road in sight most of the time. His son, my grandson could do that. You could do that. You could fish the whole way if you wanted. You can hunt for deer and elk and moose almost from end to end. Heck on this last trip we almost walked up the butt end of a bull moose taller than I could reach. But that's all gone if we parcel it off that land to the highest bidders. My grandson won't ever make that walk if this stuff happens. Your grandson won't. No one will. Ever. I don't think anyone who loves the outdoors (and isn't a billionaire that can buy 10,000 acres of their own) could ever want that land to go away if they understood what it is and what's possible there. Is wilderness really as unimportant as that?

http://www.southernfriedscience.com/?p=17469 These guys are suggesting IUCN species listed as vulnerable, endangered, or critically endangered be legally excluded from trophy fishing. This includes 85 of the 1,222 species with tackle records listed by the IGFA and a few species we know about like hammerhead shark, bluefin tuna and Apache trout. What think we? Edit: Here's the paper: http://www.rsmas.miami.edu/assets/Shiffman_et_al_Mar_Pol_2014.pdf I'm a little blown away to see tarpon and common carp??? on the list.

Good Lord. The RNC endorsed this??? So this thing is for real?????? Wayne, your post is so muddled it's not hard to see why you're confused. Pubilc land is logged to the ground all over the west...and mined....and grazed etc. etc., etc. This bill has nothing to do with logging vs. not logging. It has to do with kissing your hunting, fishing, camping, and citizen's rights goodbye forever on the best land this country has to offer it's citizens.

Nice. Congratulations!

It's definitely a female if it's a hornyhead. BFishn's picture is of a male. It would also be really big if it were a chub, but I've caught them that size.

http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2014/08/14/3471491/republican-sell-public-lands/ I don't think this is a mainstream Republican proposal. Surely the adults in that party will kill this before it becomes an idea anyone takes seriously.

But the known effects of common carp are bad enough. They tear into substrate like no other North American fish. Illinois would have clear running streams if not for common carp. I agree that the full extent of the Asian carp's damage is a story yet to be told. But they feed from the water column and so only compete for resources. At the populations they've attained, that's a lot of competition. So yes, and they may indeed end up being worse on the whole.

Creek chubsucker are thicker and smaller and have a bi-lobed anal fin. Shorthead red horse have bright red fins. 39-43 lateral lines scales for a golden red horse. 44-48 for a black red horse. 42-44 for a river redhorse, which are also supposed to have red fins...probably redder than this. This one has well over 40, but I'd have to blow up the picture to see exactly how many. I don't see the mouth especially well here, but if it didn't look like a sucker mouth while you were holding it, I bet it was a big chub alright. Nocomis biguttatus, hornyhead chub is a real possibility. http://bencantrellfish.blogspot.com/2012/09/microfishing-southern-missouri.html

I actually approached a feed company about this a few years ago as an alternative for shrimp feed or other animal feed. The source proteins for those feeds are already so cheap that the transport costs alone made the Asian carp prohibitively expensive in comparison. They'll need to make it as a human food if they're going to be cost effective. A couple of other things, Fish for fish, common carp are probably still more destructive, but as a population as their current level of density you could easily argue Asian carp are worse than common carp. Also, I believe there have been several government initiatives to promote the commercialization of Asian carp. I agree more should be done, but the basic hurdle is going to be getting the public to accept them. Until they have market value, nothing's going to work. There are not enough taxes in the world to subsidize them into submission.

I collected a devil crayfish (Cambarus diogenes) that was 71 cm (2.8 inches) from the tip of the rostrum to the back edge of the cephalothorax. That was the biggest one on record in Illinois at that time as recorded by the Natural History Survey. I think yours is substantially bigger.

It's going to be impossible to diagnose what's going wrong from the internet. If you're doing something to spook the fish or tying your knots sloppily or making short casts.... ...someone has to be there to see that if they're really going to help you. Get one of these guys to show up and offer some tutelage.

What is a good trip? Once I understand where the fish are and how to find them, then I settle down and am usually satisfied with whatever comes my way. Once I reach that point, that's a "good" trip for me. But I hate to get skunked and work like a dog to avoid it. Screw that fishing zen crap. I'm willing to take the bad days when they come, but I'm not going to be happy about it. I would second the advice to pay attention to what you read here. I would add, however, that you have to spend enough time to understand the "why" of that advice you receive before it's going to do you much good. Information just focused on where to fish is a dead end in the long run. Sure, you may be fishing a spot that had fish...2 weeks ago...but you don't know WHY you're standing there, or if you should be still. Similarly, depending on advice to use a particular bait may not do you any good if you don't know where the fish are holding. You may also know that a particular river holds smallmouth, but if you don't know the kind of habitat they're using or the kinds of prey they want, or the times of day they're active, or whether something is spooking the fish, you'll go home disappointed more often than not. Quite a few people never manage to integrate all the different kinds of information you need to succeed consistently at fishing. That's why we have golf. Even mediocre water produces fish if you know how to read it properly. Even rich water can be a disappointment if you don't know how to tap into what's happening there. Consistent success takes time and patience...a patient teacher doesn't hurt either. I will say too that fishing for just an hour is a pretty short trip. I usually catch, but I also usually catch most of my fish in the back half of the trip after I've tried a few different things and made a few observations that reveal what's going to succeed.

I will never admit that I watched that. But I have not given up on unicorns.

Great stuff! Condolences on losing the "big one", but it was a noble chase.

This is attached algae, right? Filamentous stuff growing on the bottom. Sounds a little different from the Meramac where the issue is clarity in the water column. Is the problem in the Meramac definitely algae? Could it be resuspended sediment? A landslide or poor erosion control or an explosion of carp populations can make things look bad pretty quickly.

Like!!

Those floods last year were absolutely epic. They had hundreds of miles of highway blown away along with dozens of bridges. It's amazing they got Hwy. 36 and 34 back up and operating within 3 months after it happened.

Cub Lake is a place to find moose, not trout. Good luck in that drainage. Looking forward to hearing your report. I just got back form backpacking with my son in that area and the rain has been a bit out of hand there this week. In the mountain streams we were following, there were so many beaver dams, it almost didn't matter. There's so much retention there's almost no possibility of cloudy water. ...and yeah, all Colorado trout will make you sick. Horrible horrible things happen to people who eat them. Or even fish for them. Scary bad. Where's the emoticon for a scary face?