Mark

Deer Farms?? Genetically selected deer? Farm raised bucks with huge antlers for sale? Geezus Christmas!! Have people gone totally nuts?? How many deer farms are there in Missouri? And if there is evidence of CWD, then they should be shut down. I have wondered how these deer farms make money. Do they sell just the big bucks for outrageous dollars to private land owners who entice leases with the hopes of a big trophy? Do they sell deer for the meat? I can't imagine how they are profitable when most deer hunters can go out and shoot a deer for free during deer season. I, for one, appreciate the job the Missouri Department of Conservation does in our state. And I think there are many more conservationists and environmentalists in Missouri than there are big business people chasing the almighty dollar. I hope Missourians will stand up to the threats of these business people.

Why run when you don't have to??

Thanks all - I am thinking if I go myself, I would find an access to set up base camp for a couple days. Hopefully I would be able to work my way upstream and downstream with motor on canoe. I can play all day in just a couple miles of water - I don't need 10-15 mile floats to enjoy myself.

With the Bardley gauge at 560 cfs, what would the water levels be like down at HWY 142 bridge and Myrtle access? I believe that both accesses have plenty of water to work upstream and downstream for a couple miles each direction WITH normal water levels. I am wondering at low winter levels if there is still plenty of water up and down from each access with a jet boat? I have only been down that far a couple times and in the summer with good water. And how about on the Arkansas side of the border?? Is there good water into Arkansas? How far down to Dalton, Ark? What little I've read, there is no accesses between Myrtle and Dalton - is that correct? Can a jet make it from Myrtle down to Dalton??

Now I feel better knowing you have those days too Al

Good topic. Guessing this can only be done legally on private lakes and ponds. I know a guy who does use a couple pallets tied together with angle iron running diagonally thru the pallets. His theory is the pallets allow the small bait fish to hide out and the angle iron prevents larger predator fish from swimming thru the pallets. Made sense to me. My brother flooded the cove in his lake with brush and downed trees. Great fishing but lots of snags. Another buddy two coves down swears my brother messed up his cove and this buddy refuses to add any cover and even hauls down trees and brush out of the cove. My opinion is there aren't as many fish in his cove, but it's his cove and that's the way he wants it. I would think there is a fine line between good cover and too much cover that makes it hard to fish without snags. But I like the old adage "If you ain't tying hooks, your not fishing where the fish are".

From my personal experiences (fishing trips - 3 times to Colorado, and 1 time Clark's Fork in NW Wyoming near Yellowstone - all in late July due to my schedule as a teacher), the biggest surprise has been the difficulty in fishing and wading such fast moving water even in late July. Trips have included fishing the upper Crystal River/Roaring Fork in central CO, Arkansas River, Big Thompson near Rocky Mountain National Park, and the Wind River and Clarks Fork in Wyoming. Of all my trips, the upper Crystal River was probably my most successful, and undoubtedly because we were on smaller water on the upper reaches of the Crystal. MAN, those mountain rivers are fast, furious, cascading waterfall type rivers, and tough to wade (slippery rock/boulder bottoms) even in spots where the river slows down somewhat. But like I said, all trips were in late July. I would love to fish the mountain rivers in fall when all the run off is over, but that will have to wait until retirement. From my experience, in late July for all trips, we have seen more whitewater rafting water than what we flatlanders would associate as fishing waters. Al Agnew would be the resident expert on the Wyoming/Montana area, but for my two cents, if your group could manage a fall trip, that would be my choice if you have never visited the area. We rented a house northwest of Cody, WY about 2 hours on the Chief Joseph Scenic Byway that follows the Clarks Fork of the Yellowstone. About 10 miles farther up the Chief Joseph HWY intersects with the Beartooth Scenic Byway that leads to Cooke City, MT on the WY/MT border, and the north entrance to Yellowstone NP. Just awesome scenery in every direction. As Jim Elam mentioned above, there are numerous rivers within an hour or so drive of this area. Granted, you are primarily on a fishing trip, but the drive from Jackson Hole, WY thru Yellowstone NP and coming out in Montana is something everyone should see in their lifetime. And wherever you are, you are never far from a fishing stream. You didn't mention if you camping, or getting lodging. One suggestion me and my vacation buddy have found out, we rented a house for a week like I said near eastern Yellowstone boundary. That pretty much limited us to the area within 1-2 hours of our cabin, (especially after driving out there and the drive home to look forward to). We have learned to not tie ourselves down to one area - a good example, the Clarks Fork was still high, fast, and too hard to wade because of amount of fast water, but we were pretty well stuck to that area since our lodging was there. I would suggest not tying yourself down to specific area for the entire trip. Leave yourself some flexibility in case the river(s) you choose are too tough fishing, you can always move on. There are more places to fish than you can get to in a lifetime in that part of the country. IF you haven't been mountain fishing at all in your life, it is totally different than fishing even the fastest streams in Missouri. Multiply the upper Current by about X 20. Most rivers will have multiple pull offs along the road that are public fishing, but even in those spots, you may have only a hundred yards of wadeable water (if that). Lots of cascading waterfalls with huge boulders that hold pocket water behind the boulders that hold fish. From my experience, don't expect to find rivers that you can wade up and downstream all day, especially I believe is still not legal in Wyoming on private land. Definitely illegal in Colorado, and people are adamant about their own private stretch of water. Correct me if I am wrong, Al, but I believe Montana to be more lenient about fishing thru private land as long as you don't trespass on private land to reach the stream, you can wade thru private streams as long as you stay in the water. Bottom line, by all means I suggest the Yellowstone/Montana area if your group has never been there, but don't expect to slay the fish your first time fishing a mountain stream. Depending on your budget, a guide and renting a raft may be your best bet, or if someone on here would give you advice on a can't miss section of river. And be flexible, don't tie yourself down by making accommodations to stay in one place all week.

Thanks, I really want to give it a try this summer.

Guessing this is a question for those that know the river well..... I'm wondering if anyone knows of any accesses where there is enough water (at normal summer levels in June and July) to put in my canoe with my 2.5 HP motor, and be able to get upstream and downstream for a decent stretch of fishing. The Buffalo River is on my bucket list but I can't seem to get any friends interested since it is a 5 hr plus drive, so going solo may be my best option. I would consider a one or two night solo float trip, anything longer than that turns in to more work that I want. Since it is a pretty good drive, I would want to spend a few days just checking the river out. I realize that motors are not allowed upstream from Erbie. So besides a couple day float trip, I would like to find an access where I could set up base camp, and have a good stretch upstream and/or downstream with enough water to use my canoe with motor to do some fishing. I don't have a problem with pulling it thru a few ripples or low spots. I would love to find a place where I could get in some fishing without going on an all day float, and having to find someone to shuttle my vehicle or canoe, or have to be on someone else's time schedule. I am thinking if I found a good spot for base camp with some good water, I could fish early mornings, sight see afternoons, and fish again in the evening. I have never been to the Buffalo, so I'm hoping to get some advice rather that trial and error for a week looking for my ideal spot. I have no idea what water levels are like on the Buffalo or if my idea is even doable. And I realize water levels fluctuate, and I would be going in June or July (I'm a school teacher), and I would have to be downstream from Erbie, so let's assume it is a normal summer with normal rainfall amounts. I would be grateful for a couple suggestions on places to start. Thanks in advance. I have a feeling if I go scout it out first and come home with good reports, I will me more apt to get my buddies interested in going.

Good report - looking forward to a trip down there over Christmas - hope the weather cooperates

Good report Al. Glad to hear Jeff was "wrasslin" some smallmouth!

A group of 4-5 guys are considering a first time trip to the North Fork of the White - we've talked about it many times. I have researched a few places to stay - ROLF, Sunburst Ranch, Daxt Mill cabin. We would like a place on the water, somewhere to wade fish, room for everyone to have a bed or couch, BBQ, have some cocktails, hot showers, and relax, with nice accommodations but not necessarily Five Star. Anyone familiar with the area have any preference on a place to stay? Some of the place at ROLF look awesome, but maybe a little pricey for us. Things like fireplace and hot tub are nice, but we could manage without. On the other hand, $10 or so per person per night is not a big deal either if the place and fishing is worth it. Really like the looks of some of the ROLF cabins on the water. And like the idea of private access to fishing at some of the spots. We're looking at 2 nights perhaps Mon/Tues Dec. 29-30. Hoping to hear from some people who have stayed at a few of the places to compare price, fishing, and accommodations. Thanks in advance, Mark

Oh I certainly agree with the pristine conditions. Just wondered why someone hasn't tried some development downstream from Riverton. Guess I didn't realize that easements existed on private land. I have seen a couple spots below Hwy 142 where it looks like someone made a campground on their private lot.

Brian, maybe you can answer this question as someone with first hand knowledge of the how the local population feels... Does the local population not want any more commercialization of the river? I have often thought that a RV park or rental cabins right on the river (of course, outside of the ONSR protected areas) would be a good investment. I am thinking of areas of private land below Riverton down to the Arkansas border. It just seems like someone would have thought of buying some riverfront property and try to make some money off of it with tourism. I know I have talked to people who are adamantly opposed to anything like the Current River at Van Buren commercialization, but I don't know if there is anything preventing someone from making an investment and trying to turn a profit on privately owned riverfront property. Just curious.

You're out of luck on the Eleven Point. Only RV campground is at Greer Crossing on Hwy 19 and no electric and the water is shut off for the winter. I don't understand why there isn't any full service RV campgrounds on the Eleven Point. I have heard locals say they don't want the Eleven Point to turn into another Current River party place like Van Buren. I guess I can understand that line of thought. Although I consider the RV types to be an older crowd and less likely to be having wild parties.

That reminds me of something I heard or read... I've heard or read that fish have about a 20 minute memory. Meaning, if you catch a fish in one spot and disturb the water, fish may be scared for a while, but return to normal patterns after about 20 minutes. Fact or folklore?

I was under the impression that Asian carp needed slug and silt on the bottom to feed, and would not do well in the gravel bottoms of most Ozark streams. Maybe the lower Current in Arkansas is not gravel, I don't know. Regardless, not a good thing at all.

And thus, we will continue down the same road.

We, as a nation, have to lead the fight to clean up our environment and atmosphere. Admittedly, it is an uphill fight when we are divided in our nation on the effects man is having on our environment as some doubt we are having any negative effects, and we continually put profits over the environment. Maybe boycott products produce in other countries that don't comply with environmental standards. I can see your point of view - individually, each person isn't even a drop in the bucket. I'm sure Ameren UE does more damage to our environment in a day than each of us individually do in a lifetime. But our principles should guide us on the environment. Again, our ancestors and decendants will be ashamed of us for what we have done to our planet is the past 150 years.

I don't believe that throwing our hands up in the air because there is nothing we can do about it is the answer.

Thanks Al for trying to answer more eloquently than I can. It's hard to believe that most argue about money spent on grants and research, with all the other money wasted by our government, that is their biggest complaint. You're right, you can't argue with someone who has their minds made up. I have to always ask, though, what if we do find in the future undeniable evidence that we are doing irreversible damage to our environment and atmosphere - is it worth the risk to do nothing now???

Yep - new report out which show record level of CO2 emissions in 2013 - 2% increase over previous year - 61% increase since 1990 - with a steady increase every year since the Industrial Revolution and the advent of factories and oil using machinery. Yet to deniers of man contributing to climate change and with all we know about the greenhouse effect, 2 + 2 doesn't = 4

Yeah Al, I thought of that too, that some streams would be deemed not navigable. My thoughts are that it would seem like that with all the controversy, confrontations, and incidents with police getting involved in the "rights of the public vs. landowners" that somehow the grey area of the law would have been cleared up by now. Like I said, this controversy has been going on all of our lives. And yes, I worry that we, the public, might not like the outcome.

This debate of what is navigatable waters and what is not navigatable waters, and public usage rights, and high water mark, has been going on for my entire lifetime of 56 years. After someone getting killed on the Meramac, you would think that someone would make the legislature get the specifics of the law regarding the public's rights written into law. Granted, this incident happened in Arkansas, but as far as I know, nothing has changed in Missouri get specific written documentation on what is considered navigatable or not navigatable rivers and streams. The issue doesn't appear to be that complex, other than typical politicians wanting to please both sides on the issue.

Sarcasm folks. Illustrating the ridiculousness of assault weapons for sportsman purposes.