ness

Yeah -- stay left at the #$%^&&* Horseshoe.

Alright, alright. Let's not pile on here. I gotta admit, my first reaction was... huh? But, when you're typing on a forum, it's not always best to go with your first reaction, if you know what I mean. So, I gave it some thought, and then some more -- trying to see it more from OTF's viewpoint. Anyway, I'm a small stream kinda guy, and landing a 3-pound fish of any kind would be a thrill -- I'm human and get excited about stuff too. And I'm also the kind of guy that likes to avoid the crowds and soak it all in. So, somebody whoopin' and hollerin' about catching a fish wouldn't be real high on my list of sounds I'd like to hear when I'm in the great outdoors. So, I can see where OFF may have bristled a bit at all that. So let's no pick nits over his choice of words, or call him on the carpet about his avatar. I think we all can relate, in some way, to what he's saying. We all jerk fish out of the water by the jaw, and that can't feel too good. But, we've all made the decision to do it, and we're doing it within our comfort zone. If OTF is a little less comfortable than you, then so be it. I can understand it. If anything good comes from this thread, I hope it's that folks think a little about what they're doing out there.

Hope we can keep this civil... Here's a no-nonsense site to keep track of what's been promised, spent and paid back.

If you have an interest in catching a native brookie, go up high in the park. PM me if you'd like some specific recommendations.

I'm having a helluva time following this thread. How'd this one go wrong? Phil -- can you give me permission, temporary of course, to do a little editing? I could have this cleaned up in no time.

I did something similar -- also in RMNP PaolaCat: I was walking along a trail just up from the stream, and caught my foot under a root. Went down hard and fast; I didn't get a hand out to break the fall at all. Landed face first in a nice soft mossy place. Right above my head was a rock. I just got lucky.

Hey Solus, If you're looking for good information about fishing Roaring River, Tim's program should be just what you're looking for.

Not a Taney expert, by any means, but from what I've read this is a real possibility. I would think the high water flows would disturb redds to some degree too, but I know there's in-stream reproduction of browns in AR tailwaters.

Here's a photo of a parr-marked fish: The purplish vertical blobs are parr marks -- found on young rainbows.

Yeah -- that's my kinda fishing right there, Mark. Good report, and don't give any clues here -- just PM me

Well, dayum. You made me get out my Behnke book. Oncorhynchus mykiss is the genus/species for rainbow, steelhead and redbands (i.e., they're the same fish, almost). There are a number of recognized subspecies, generally grouped as follows: 1. Coastal rainbows CA/OR/WA/Canada/AK (O.m. irideus) some are anadromous (spend time in the ocean; return and spawn in streams) and known as Steelhead 2. Redbands of Columbia & Fraser rivers NV/OR/WA/ID & Canada (O.m. gardineri), some are anadromous and known as Redband steelhead 3. Redbands of parts of northern Great Basin and upper Klamath Lake basin CA/NV/OR (O.m. newberrii) 4. Redbands of northern Sacramento River basin CA (O.m. stonei) this includes the McCloud river 5. 3 supspecies native to Kern River basin: Golden Trout Creek Golden Trout (O.m. auguabonita), Kern River Rainbow (O.m. gilberti), Little Kern River Golden (O.m. whitei). The 'Goldens' don't have a pronounced 'red band', more like a thinner stripe, along with different coloration -- kinda golden. 6. Rainbow-like trout native to 3 river basins in Mexico that aren't officially subspecies. The ones designated 'redband' (2, 3, 4) have the familiar red band (doh!) and are the primary ancestor for all our fish in MO. McCloud River Rainbows aren't a subspecies, just part of the O.m. stonei subspecies in #4. McCloud is an 'origin', not a subspecies. We're not 100% sure the Crane rainbows aren't mutts either. It's just that there were no recorded stockings, so it's assumed they're 'pure'. Even more so than the fish in the McCloud River, which has had documented introductions of other strains. Are they special? You bet. Are they pure? Who knows for sure, but it doesn't matter in the end, right? All our hatchery fish are mutts. All of them. 'Shasta', 'Columbia', 'Missouri', 'Missouri Arlee', whatever -- they are all mutts. There have been all kinds of things mixed together, including Steelhead, Crane 'McClouds', whatever. They've been selectively bred to make better hatchery and fishing-fish (spawn at the right time, grow fast, disease resistant, whatever). So, don't make too much of the name they call them at the hatchery. That's more marketing than science. Brightly-colored alone doesn't really mean anything, just like muted colors don't. Anybody who's fished Crane has likely caught a beautifully-colored fish and a silvery one too -- often on the same trip. And, we've all caught brightly-colored fish right out of the parks, right along with the dull-gray variety. Season matters, diet matters, time in stream matters, and habitat matters. What the hatchery guy calls it -- doesn't matter. So, that's the latest science. And it's not set in stone or absolutely precise. The scientific community is constantly looking at all this, adding or subtracting subspecies, studying strains, whatever. As a matter of fact, rainbow trout were grouped in the Salmo genus up until the 1980's (which includes salmon and brown trout), then were moved over to the Oncorhynchus genus. And lastly, the trout around here commonly referred to as Golden Trout aren't technically that -- that name is reserved for the two subspecies in #5: O.m. gardineri and whitei. They're just another mutt that's been selectively bred to look putrid. They're not albino. Phew! Test Friday.

You're fighting a losing battle there, Trav: technology will advance, price will come down, more people will buy it, repeat. Add to that competitive fishing for money, and well -- you get the picture. I guess it's all about what 'floats your boat'. Some folks are driven to catch the most fish, have the best stuff, etc. Some folks just enjoy being outdoors and catching a fish or two with their trusty 303. And most folks are somewhere in between. I suppose I don't really care what the others are up to, as long as they don't mess it up for me.

We've owned 4 Dodge Caravans. Can't complain too much about the first 3, but the last one was a POS. Most of the big stuff blew up under warranty (steering, brakes, lift gate, sliding doors, AC, electric windows), but it was one problem after another all it's life. So we went with a Mazda this time. I was driving a 2002 Ford Explorer. Don't have my total, but it had a new transmission at 110k miles, and needed a new read-end. Guvmint paid me $4,500 for it and crushed it. I decided I'd get a rock-solid Toyota for a change. My mileage is up about 50 percent, but it feels 'cheaper' than my Ford -- fit and finish isn't great, things rattle a little. The plastic strip in the slot on the roof blew off last week. I work with a guy who's driving a 2002 Jeep Grand Cherokee. He added up his repair bills and it totaled $14,700. No sh*t. I'm trying to get the best car I can for the money that meets the needs of our family. Personal experience and research lead me to where I am.

+1

It's always been that way ALWAYS! Not just the last 14 months. yawn.

A few weeks ago I wheeled my Toyota into a convenience store and stopped. I leaned over to the right to reach something that had slid off the passenger seat and I heard my engine rev and the car lurched forward a couple inches, but fortunately I had the brake on. It stopped revving when .... I took my foot off the gas. My foot had slid to the right and caught the edge of the gas pedal when I was reaching over. Now, if I had run it forward into the corner of the building, and had been of a mind, I'd have been a prime candidate for a little face time on TV, and maybe even some compensation -- especially if my bionic neck had been jerked in the collision. The thought actually crossed my mind. No, not that I considered doing that -- but that there are a lot of folks that would have looked at that as an opportunity.

Read my post Eric. I didn't say "GM", now did I? And I didn't say 'assembly workers' earlier. If you want to discuss this, how about you respond to what was said, not what you wish was said. It's a fact that, in general, Japanese cars rate higher for reliability and resale value. What -- you're calling me out because you know some and think I don't? What difference does that make, and why make it personal? It's well-documented that a major cause of Chrysler and GM's woes are the out-sized labor costs. Sh*t happens, man. A great income, retirement and lifetime health care were never a sure thing. Sorry for the individuals that are affected by that, but it's narrow-minded to think this is purely an auto maker thing, or the result of unpatriotic citizens. Take a look around you -- I'd bet from your lofty perch upon the soapbox, you could see some other folks that didn't hit the jackpot. I'd venture a guess that 'unrestrained capitalism', or even slightly-restrained capitalism, has, on balance, been pretty good to you.

Freedom to choose is at the very foundation of our country. A car buying decision and patriotism are pretty far removed. You may have a soft spot for American workers, and that's just dandy -- I like us too. But selecting a crappy product with a Made in USA sticker on it is just a bad decision. There are far too many variables in the equation (parts, distribution, sales, etc.) to even come close to knowing whether your purchase of a Chrysler over a Toyota helps more Americans. Patriotism is not even in the equation. BTW -- I didn't blame assembly line workers for anything. I said the companies were poorly run and produced a product that didn't sell well enough. And the wages are too high and the benefits and pensions are far too generous. Those things (and others) broke Chrysler and GM, and they're still broke despite billions in cash infused, and billions of obligations erased. So we just kicked the can down the road with that one. We took their failing businesses, wiped out the investors (which is as it should be) and then made the rest the taxpayer's burden. Nice. Ford managed to steer through this without a bankruptcy or taxpayer dollars, so maybe it is they just know how to build and sell cars better than the others? Maybe that's the guy you pick if you want to buy American? BTW, if 'corporations' are the problem, I wonder what the alternative is. To the original issue, and to steer this away from politics (which is hopeless, I know): Why the hell can't anybody figure out that you just pop that bad-boy into neutral and pull over? How can it be that this guy needs a highway patrolman tell him over the loudspeaker to put on the freakin' brakes to slow the car down, which is the wrong approach anyway? Unfortunately for Toyota -- there are millions of folks out there, and a few are gonna try to milk this thing.

I didn't have the patience to read through all the posts, but to answer an early question: yes, I love to fish from a tube. It's a relaxing and comfortable way to get around on smaller water. Lotsa times the best water is out of reach from shore, so a tube gets you in there. Also, since you're driving with your feet, your hands are always free -- unlike a canoe or pontoon. I've got the v-shaped Force Fins, and I use the straps to keep from losing them. Yep -- they're a pain to walk in, so I just minimize the walking. No matter what, it's never pretty when I enter or exit the tube though. The trick with a tube is to just take it slow and fish as you go. If you hop in and immediately try to head a couple hundred yards over to your spot, you won't enjoy it too much.

Wrong -- times two. The auto companies essentially got an equity infusion, and they have returned only a small portion. Don't forget, the finance arms of Chrysler and GM got massive bailouts too. Oh, and the auto suppliers. Oh, and they also went through bankruptcy and wiped out billions in debt. The reason they ended up in such horrible shape is the way they ran the business. Paid far too much to workers -- current salary, benefits and through their pensions -- and produced inferior product that didn't sell well. You might be thinking of the banks -- the big ones have almost all paid back the money. BTW -- many of them were forced to take the TARP money. So, before you tag anyone else as 'silly', and to prevent yourself from looking silly too, you should check the facts yourself here: CNN Bailout Tracker I'd like to see the statistics that backup up your quality claim. The number of incidents is minuscule compared to the number of cars and miles driven. Not saying there isn't a problem -- just saying the number of incidents doesn't appear to be a widespread issue. Which, you couldn't tell by the amount of press it's receiving. BTW -- patriotism doesn't have anything to do with what kinda car you drive.

Hey Trevor, RMNP is a pretty good place to catch fish and build confidence. There are a lot of streams in the park that are just brimming with brookies (stupid brookies, but you don't need to tell your wife that), also rainbows, browns and even cutthroats. They're all opportunistic feeders and will hammer about anything you throw out there, if you go it about right. My first bit of advice would be to hire a guide. But, if that's not in the budget, there are a lot of opportunities where beginners can do well. First off -- all the streams (all!) have fish in them. The lower elevation, slow-moving streams will have the largest and most wary fish. The farther up you go, the skinnier the water, the more desperate the fish and the better chances for lots of action. Put a bushy dry fly into any still pocket of water you see in a rocky, fast-moving stream, and a fish will see it. To get him to strike, you'll need a fairly fine tippet (5X or less), and keep the line and most of the tippet off the water. It helps if you're not standing in the pocket too This means a lot of stiff-armed reaches with just the fly on the water -- not your long, beautiful, 'River Runs Through It' casts. It's also helpful to have a nymph dropper -- about 8-18 inches below the dry (depending on water depth). A pretty sure thing is a #10 Stimulator with a #16 Hare's ear or Pheasant Tail dropper. It's not so much about matching the hatch, or picking the right fly, as it is presenting it right. These fish have just survived winter and runoff, and they're gonna eat anything close. You just can't spook them and expect them to eat. Keep the top fly dry and floating high with Gink and an occasional dry-shake and you'll have them busting it. Let it get wet and you'll miss strikes -- which, by the way, will be lightening quick -- much faster than you're used to in MO. A good general-purpose rod would be an 8-1/2 foot 4 weight. That would be long enough to clear streamside vegetation if you fish lower elevation meadows, or give you plenty of reach if you're stretching and hitting pocket water higher up. I have a great guide to recommend -- PM me if you're interested. It would be money-well-spent to get your wife off on the right foot, and no matter what your level he would teach you something -- he's a master at fishing the small creeks and an excellent teacher.

15 is better than 12 and halfway to 18. 1 is one-third of 3 and really close to zero. Somebody wanna check my math? Seems like this is a good thing, but I might be missing something.

You're just making that up, fozzie. C'mon -- this is serious!

Dan -- I read though your exhaustive posts on what the MSA, and especially its Blue Ribbon panel, are doing to help move the MDC toward more protection for SMB. Seems like an extremely well thought out approach to the issue, and designed to get the best possible results in the shortest period of time. I think avoiding the overlap with the White Paper is a good move -- no sense going down that path again. While everybody's special interest may not have been specifically addressed, it's important to note that this is movement in the right direction, and sets a precedent for future improvements. If nothing else is accomplished immediately but a statewide 15 MLL we're still far better off. All movement in the right direction is good movement.