troutfiend1985

Does this mean better management though? Maybe you should define management, as you define it. Have you fished other resources in the north and west and our you also using their management policies in your evaluation of the MDC. Who do you think the MDC should serve and how? Do you think tourist dollars, such as in Arkansas should play a big role? While we're on the subject, why did you chang your handle? Hold on hear Wayne, you use the fact that MO has springs spread out through the entire state as a way of justifying that MDC has better management than Arkansas, and then at the same time you want to say "apples to oranges" because Arkansas has better fish producing water. On one hand, you use this logic to justify your conclusion and I wouldn't have a problem with that rationale but for the fact that you use the same logic to say that we can't compare the two. One way or the other on this one my friend, you can't do both. You say that Arkansas does not manage for children, once again do your research in Dry Creek. As fair as bait goes, you may have me on that as I don't fish with bait regularly, but I will jump out on the limb and say that I imagine somewhere on the White that you can use bait to fish for trout. I have never changed my handle, I still think that MDC could benefit from enacting some of Arkansas's regulations. However I have one more question: You refernence the millions of dollars that Arkansas makes off of its fisheries and say that they manage specifically waters specifically for making money, but are you sure of this? Do you not think that Arkansas may have reacted to the fact that people are traveling to their state and Arkansas thus changed their regulations to better serve the fishing public and to protect their waters at the same time and keep their fihsing at a high level?

How so? It's very easy to throw a statement out there like this, but how does MO's trout program serve a more diverse population? While Missouri has taken advantage of it's many springs, Arkansas has only exploited Mammoth, at least to my knowledge. Does this mean better management though?

I actually had class cancel last night, first time I've had a snow day in about 6 years

Ah, so the chain is the key. Going to have to get some so that I can open up larger holes, although I do have to tell that these guys were pretty good and the extension cord was a nice touch

Hey, that's no problem. Part of the fun about forums is seeing different views, how they interact etc. And I can't say that I'm innocent, I like stirring the pot a little

So, are you telling me they are still spawning?

What is the big picture there Wayne? I think that I've been stating all along that the regulations are progressive. Just to humor you: Rainbow trout: Arkansas-19.1, MO- 18.1 Stripped Bass: Ark. 64.1, MO-56.5 Muskie: Ark N/A, MO 41.2 What's your point, Muskie I guess. I guess if two out of three ain't bad, one out of three ain't good.

Most of my posts came during class, Too early in the semester I guess. Oh well, differences I guess its the spice of life. Maybe one day. . . I'm still waiting for Tim to tell me how I hate government, first time I've ever been called that, almost a compliment

Al I appreciate your post, but my thing is that Arkansas has more progressive regulations. I know that I started off the topic with the statement of the world record, but the main thing is the regulations. And I would still tempt anyone to tell how Missouri's regulations are better/more applicable and progressive than Arkansas without using a status qou argument. And yes, apples to oranges in a sense, but Arkansas seems to protect what it has. To me, protection = conservation. I keep hearing politics, this and that cannot be done. But what I am wondering is why? What is the difference in C&R and the current blue ribbon status, very little. So why go through this appeasement effort and who is the MDC appeasing? I know that you have to have the people on your side, but sometimes you just have to say change is happening, and change for the better. I can't see a real clear argument in how limiting the trophy areas and "blue ribbon" streams is going to hurt the relations between the MDC and the catch and keep angler if these regulations already effectivly ban or seriously restrict these anglers already. What would start happening would be that those who catch and release would be affected, those like me. I have no problem with staying off a wild stream during spawning, so how would this affect an angler who is already limited to only catch an 18+ inch trout? And you can't tell me that a C&R section to a stream wouldn't be a good thing for overall angling. Yes, bait fisherman would have a hard time with this, but there still other areas that he can fish, trout parks and those areas of white ribbon streams which are not designated as C&R. This point has been made on another thread.

Justin, I think that I placed a condition in that food sources etc. may vary. And then you go and say compare Taney to White, which what I was refering to. Also, Stalin is not the only one who closes down a stream for part of the year to protect spawning, try Arkansas out. Yep, in your neighborhood there may not be alot people wlaking through redds, but I would be willing to bet that smaller streams may have more of that. If things aren't broke then don't fix it is a great way to stay where you are at, but status qou isn't always the best thing. And I know I'm shocking the masses by saying barbless hooks and C&R, but really a lot of other states already have this in place. Which is how I connect the circle here, Arkansas has more progressive laws, and that may be one reason why they have better fisheries.

Tim, I don't know why you want to get into semantics, especially with a subjective word like "good" and I believe that I put that phrase in quotations with a sense of humor behind it. Good to me and good to the guy down the street varies incredibly, yet effective does not, better can but not as much as good, so lets just put that to the side for one second. A state agency should manage its assets to benefit the most people that it can. In this case we're talking about trout. Yes, many people want to keep trout, so lets put the trout parks out there, no problem with that. The purpose is clear, it serves novice fisherman and experienced alike, keeping trout is no big deal because they are stocked daily. All right, in agreement? But then we have a winter season, C&R only. What's so bad about this, well there is no barbless hook requirement, petty differences? Well maybe, but it would seem logical to require barbless as the purpose has now switched temporarily from a catch and keep, to conservation. Now, let’s take a logical leap into the Blue ribbon streams, which hold wild trout that are not stocked. One would even go so far as to suggest that this is sustainable or: "of, relating to, or being a method of harvesting or using a resource so that the resource is not depleted or permanently damaged." One has stated that this serves as a "de facto" C&R area, but are there barbless requirements? Do they close the area to fishing while spawning? No. So, what is this? We have a conundrum, one would argue "mismanage" or to not "handle or direct with a degree of skill." Why? Because it would seem logical or "a particular mode of reasoning viewed as valid" to take necessary administrative measures that conform to the primary purpose of the MDC and its blue ribbon streams. What is the primary purpose of blue ribbon streams? Well, I'm not the MDC so I cannot speak with authority, but one would assume to protect the fish while balancing angler use. However, the fish directly rely on their own reproduction to sustain their population, thus an extra degree of care would be needed, such as no wading through reds, maybe closing down the stream during spawning times and barbless requirement. I could go on, but I think you get my point, or that there is a certain illogical approach the MDC takes in managing its streams. Now, what would "good management" be, maybe to make sure that your regulations comport with the purpose of the area. It can be argued that trout parks do this, but then again is it really the best for these streams, all the stuff flowing through that branch, a sort of "trout farm" with all of the waste being dumped into the stream? What about a lack of cleaning stations in Bennett, is that a "good management" move? More important would be the spawning areas for blue ribbon areas, what purpose do our regulations serve during these times when trout are extremely sensitive? The regulations don't change, why would MDC do this? And to that I have no clue, and to that I think it is bad management. For further reading on "good" please refer to "Beyond Good and Evil" by Nietzsche. Because I’m such a nice guy, I’ve pasted a hyperlink here for you http://www.amazon.com/Beyond-Good-Evil-Prelude-Philosophy/dp/0679724656 And please Tim, I would love to know how I am anti-government, especially when I am wanting the GOVERNMENT to do something or to change CURRENT REGULATIONS. Please respond to this.

Well Wayne, apples to oranges, how so? All I said is that regulations in Arkansas are progressive, that MDC could benefit from using some of them and that as evidence, Arkansas has three, count that, world record browns. Finding equal environments?? Buddy, we're talking about an arbitrary state line seperating the two. Now may one have better food sources, more applicable to grow trout? Yes, but it was also mentioned on here that we use a different species of Browns, which is a management decision. Also, lets not limit ourselves to just the fact that I stated how many world record trout have come from Arkansas, look at the darn regulations themselves Wayne and you'll see what I'm talking about. Gosh man, I didn't just post up three world records and said "there, I'm don point made," No, I posted some other things Arkansas does that seemsto benefit their streams and rivers. Equal environments is not the definitive point, look at what they do with there streams. And Wayne, I even posted that size of fish is not a determinative factor before, so why now bring that up?

And you can flip that argument, you can't have a great fishery unless it is managed to be a great fishery(look at Yellowstone and the fishing before and after their regulation changes for an example, and no I don't want to Compare MO with Montana, or the Firehole to Taney) Look, no doubt that Arkansas has great water, better than Missouri. But, would a C&R zone improve the Current, probably. Would requiring barbless hooks on C&R sections, like the trout parks in the winter, reduce hook mortality, arguably. And why do you point to one small post I made without referring to the others I made in correlation? And why does MDC feel the need to straddle the fence with blue ribbon streams? Or is this my unrealistic goal, that I would like to see MDC call a spade a spade and put C&R regulations on areas like Crane and Blue Springs, or even close down the area for a few weeks to protect spawning. That's what my grief is over. They should be C&R, and I never said I want blue ribbon streams managed like the White River, you're putting words in my mouth Outside. Did I ever say that I want Taney to become BSD White River? What I said was MDC can benefit from some of Arkansas' regulations, like C&R areas and what not. Regulations would have the chance to improve what we already have, and that's the only reason to want regulations. Outside of trout parks, I do not know of any place in Missouri that has a C&R section which is in force all year, do you? Why else would you have a C&R zone but to improve overall fishing? Look, argue that snow isn't cold, but you cannot discount what Arkansas has done with its fisheries. And then we look at what we have in Missouri, and well. . . Outside of dumb luck(Crane) or NFOW and Taney, we have a fairly mediocre principle of management. White Ribbons, Roubidoux, Meramec. . . And what are these? Mismanaged areas, and yes I'm being critical, but I have posted before what I think needs to be done. Point to trout parks all you want Tim, but that's not really a "good management philosophy" stuffing a stream and call it good. And really, I don’t want to parse words or get into what the definition of “is” like a former president, but all I am saying is that Arkansas has more progressive regulations than MDC, just look at their regulations on the White River.

I would differ with that. MAnagement does have a lot to do with any productive fishery. If Arkansas mismanaged those streams then I doubt we would see records coming from those rivers.

I think my last post was more about the Blue Ribbon Area's. I know that MDC is trying to appease two areas of anglers with Taney, and the stocking of fish can make up for those kept. But if you keep a 19' from a wild stream you are keeping a trout that is very important to next years population. I guess that's where I draw the line at. Look, the catch and consume crowd has a ton of places in Missouri: Trout Parks, Lower Taney, White Ribbon Areas. Those areas make up for the majority of trout streams in Missouri, and I'm sure that Smallmouth guys would like to see more strict regulations on certain streams. I know that its a game of politics, but I guess that I'm just finding myself going independent on this one Now, with all that bashing on the MDC, I will say for the most part they do a good job, I just wish they would brush up a few edges.

I might try to get out there this weekend, maybe post a report(and pics if I'm lucky and remember a camera). I'm always curious as to who decides the ice is thick enough, and if they play rock scissors paper or draw straws in determining who goes on the ice first.

And that's the little things that start adding up, at least to me. Why not call it C&R? Why put in this option of keeping one? You can't tell me its for the trophy purpose with as many good model trophies or whatever it is they call it, where you send in photos and measurements etc. So why? And see that's the stuff I don't understand with the MDC because to me there isn't a good reason. And I'm not really looking for the MDC to be nice, in fact I wouldn't mind if they were jerks to those outside of the law, just protect our wildlife. But again I'll be honest, it's only my opinion and I may be off base. Cricket, I don't know if size is definitive as to the quality of management, but I would think that it is at least factor. And Arkansas seems to have consistent size. Now whether that's from management, good rivers or a combination of things. . . The point is that Arkansas seems to have fairly progressive management and regulations, and I would think these at least have an effect on the fishing.

So argue that the sky is blue rather than light blue with the fly rod record, I don't see how that point is valid. In all honesty, a fly rod record doesn't mean too much if you think about it, other than to the person who holds it. It's a conditional record because it's only a record with an exception. It's just like line class records, and if that makes you happy then good, I have no problem with something that makes people happy. But come on, legitimately it doesn't stand for a whole lot as it wouldn't be a record but for the fact that the person was using a fly rod. Maybe MO has the world record for a trout caught on a Parachute Adams, but not too many people are going to care, it’s the big one that counts. Look you have a point with the life span of the browns and I should've done my homework on that one, and to that point I am wrong. But look at what else Arkansas has, like a year 'round C&R on the White. Do you see that anywhere on Taney or NFOW, nope. Do you see that on blue ribbon streams? Again nope. Do you see that on Crane, which has one of the most rare strands of trout on it(Some might argue that the strain is not as pure as advertised but that's another post), again no. The put and take fisheries that MDC seems to love to finance, even though it makes little sense from an economic(and I would say common sense stand point), does Arkansas have that, at least the ones where if you miss the truck by a few weeks the fish are gone? And how about closing an area for spawning season. . . I mean, come on, the list could go on but I hate to waste internet space. BRBF may have his own agenda, and I certainly won't go so far as to say I hate government or anything like that, but mine is this; MDC could use some of Arkansas's plans to make better fisheries. Take the barbless hook points, are you telling me trophy areas in general would not benefit from a regulation like this? And does MO have one, again no. Do you see what I am saying? All I am trying to say is that while MDC does a good to decent job, there is a lot of room for improvement. It just irritates me to here status qou arguments, and "oh we're fine, the stocking truck will be here in a week" attitudes. On this point I'm not trying to be argumentative it's just an honest question, Why don't we use the strain that Arkansas uses? Is there a reason, like the strain wouldn't adapt well to Missouri waters?

I was just wondering if there had been anyone out ice fishing or see anyone out there doing so? It should seem to be cold enough for a long enough amount of time to get out there, although I don't know if the ice is of good quality.

Well chief, if he is talking about trout then its hard to argue against it, think of how many world record browns have came from Arkansas(3), and compare that to MO(0). The Little Red, the White River below BSD are just better fisheries, how much of that has to do with management, I don't know. Now if you're into little trout streams and creeks, MO is the place to be, but then again we have the issues of put and take fisheries and a lack of enforcement for regulations. And it seems that the White River has more progressive regulations, moving the C&R areas as needed to protect the browns that are spawning. HEck Chief, we don't even have C&R regulations on Crane, and that is arguably one of Missouri's best resources for wild trout. So, I guess it's all how you perceive it. Not defending anyone, just putting my view out there, and I think that it would be nice to at least see C&R regulations on blue ribbon streams, or even close the streams down for a month to let the trout spawn without people wading through the redds. Look, here is my deal about the whole online conveneince charge. I wouldn't have a problem with it if it reflected the amount of the service charge that MDC encounters through these payments. JD said something like 5 percent right? So a dollar is fair, but the fact that MDC started out with saying that we'll charge you 2 dollars, well, where is the reasoning behind that number?? And thats probably why they dropped it to 1 dollar, in that most peoples licenses cost about 20 dollars if they are in state and buy a trout tag on top of that. Because it is accurately reflecting the service charge, no big deal. And the whole thing about money, well at least you should feel that a state agency should responsibly reflect the accurate charges it receives, and MDC is now doing this. Now, the idea of increased conservation agents is a whole different bundle of worms. The sad thing is that I hardly ever see conservation agents, and I don't know how many we have which makes it hard to know how many more we need. I would have no problem with the idea of increasing license fees IF AND ONLY IF the MDC puts that additional revenue to increasing enforcement.

I don't know about the prestige plus, but my girlfriend has a three forks fly reel, which is cheaper than the prestige plus model, and I was really impressed with it. It has a really nice little drag system and she's never had a problem with it. I would think that the prestige plus would be at least as good, and I wouldn't hesitate in trying it out.

See, where you have it all wrong is the breaking of the ice with an ice pick. Recently at James A. Reed I witnessed an act of genius that is nothing short of theory of relativity material. For on the banks was a man with a rock attached to rope, in which he threw to break the ice repeatedly while never losing the rock(hopefully that has the poetic wax needed of a fly fisherman;) I have never seen anything like this in my life, and I'm not sure if I was more impressed with the Macgyver type creativity, or that there was another angler who decided to substitute the rope for an extension cord. Either way it was quite the eventful afternoon watching these guys playing catch with a rock tied to rope/extension cords.

I might be able to get out this week, but I was wondering if the spawn is still on. HAs anyone been down lately? If so, are there still signs of active spawning? If there is spawning I guess I'll go somewhere else. Thanks in advance.

Isn't possession of an eagle a federal offense?

What is hard for me to understand is my phone conversation with the MDC that basically told me either my brother had seen a Yellow Lab instead of a mountain lion or a bobcat. My brother and I are both familiar with bobcats, and my neighbor has a full grown yellow lab, and from what my brother told me there was no way this animal was anything but a mountain lion. The MDC's response was that unless my brother had enough evidence to prove that it was a mountain lion, then the MDC would not conduct an investigation. That's funny to me as I always thought the purpose of an investigation was to gather evidence. Also, my friend Scott who worked as a greenskeeper at a KC golf course repeatedly called the MDC to have them look at some of the sand traps in which there were large footprints. Scott was an avid outdoorsman and hunted, and knew his tracks very well. Again, he got the explanation that these prints were either a large dog or a bobcat. So my frustration, and the reason I say that the MDC denies the existence of Mountain Lions is that they are unwilling to investigate possible sightings. Look, my brother only saw one, so I can understand. But please don't insult his intelligence by saying that this was a dog or a bobcat. And why not investigate a sand trap print when you have a very credible person reporting, and someone who only wanted this done so that the course could address the situation? Chief, the MDC has lost its credibility with me on this subject with its inaction, and failing to charge these guys with anything only stirs the pot more with me. Do you understand what I am putting out there?