troutfiend1985

You got me, outside of asking the sheriff to go and talk to him personally. This guy, from what I have heard, is probably not going to give up. And from what you guys have said, I would rather not argue with him personally (the thought of a gun in the face is never a good one).

I don't really care what the MDC says on this issue, they don't make state law that defines trespassing. Look, Wayne go read Elder. Elder specifically referred to wading, and held so in the opposite. I haven't found anything that overrules the right to wade on public non-navigable, and MDC might just be putting that up there to keep people from getting into conflicts. That information is wrong, I'm sorry but As far as this goes, I don't think the courts are going to look at these factors and say, "Yeah, this case that has withstood 57 years of litigation should now be retired because of the incident at Shoal Creek." It's sad when we are willing to hold our rights as subservient to a land owner in the wrong because we are worried about some farm bureau.

Yeah, it's sad to see that Gar take such a bad rap. There was a fly fishing magazine I bought a while back where this guy was targeting gar on the fly rod. Looks like a lot of fun. This summer(my last one before hell) I'm going to explore some of the KS streams looking for "trash fish." Dumpster Diving on the Fly Rod, should be a book

That would be a nice thing if one of the deputies would be willing to do that. Look, that case has been there for 57 years, and I'm sure that when it was decided it was controversial because this is a minority rule i.e. most states are like Kansas on these issues. However, it has been a fairly litigated matter, as there are more cases out there than Elder. But, the cases subsequent to Elder have followed Elder, distinguihsed Elder(mainly holding that not all small creeks are a public way) but have not overturned Elder. Elder still stands and on this issue, with the facts and circumstances and the nature of the stream that Chief's flotilla was on, this is a good case. It parallels Elder in a lot of ways, and they are in the right with the law. Facts + Law usually equals good results. The courts might limit Elder, but I don't see the proposition that Elder stands for going anywhere any time soon.

One reason that I'm selling is that I've started to use less hackle in my dry flies. More deer hair and cdc. Just a thought.

Hey there, PETA already hates KFC, no need to get Tom Whiting involved in this But seriously, look on ebay and you will find some outrageous prices on these things. I know I read about Lilley having a huge sale to a woman that bought somewhere between 300-400$ of saddles. I just want to cash in a little

After being away for a few days(finals are in a week), I wanted to get a post up. HAS ANYONE SEEN THE PRICES FOR SADDLE HACKLE. ESPECIALLY GRIZZLY? I saw one Metz Microbarb in new condition going for 179 dollars with over one day left in bidding, I bought mine a year or two ago for around 50 dollars. I just "ordered" myself a grizzly Whiting cape, we'll see if the guy actually has it(I have my doubts). If he does, bet you bottom that I'm going to sell my Metz "pre owned" Microbar #1 on ebay and take advantage of this gold rush, even though I used the crap out of this cape I probably will get around 50 dollars for it(which is nuts). I know that I have posted on this issue before, but seriously this is nuts. Finding a cape right now is extremely difficult, and seeing that gas is going to be high this summer, I think I'm going to get a little bit of a "capital gain." I already know that my Whiting 1/4 cape in Med. Dun is going on the net in two weeks. BTW, I would’ve signed that petition going around, but it was locked while I was in the dungeon studying secured transactions. Chief, glad to hear that you got things worked out with the sheriff.

It appears that the DNR is wrong "If you own both sides of the stream and the bed of the stream, a fisherman walking on your streambed may be trespassing on your land." That was clearly established by Elder 57 years with the wading rights of floatable streams in that case. This is why this issue gets confused on clearly floatable streams. The gray (before I saw the pictures) was the size of the stream, where these guys were at, there is no question that the stream was easily floatable.

I almost want to say that I saw that in one of chiefs posts. Anyways, this whole gun pulling thing is why I think we should start a petition this summer to get Elder v. Delcour passed either as a statute or into the states constitution, maybe then these landowners would start to get an idea of what is and isn't legal.

I agree with everything except for MO to turn around and reverse this precedent with the facts given in the situation presented. Probably a good rule of thumb to ask for permission, I don't doubt that at all. But you're going to have to convince the supreme court of MO, or the legislature to overturn 57 years of precendent. That's a lot to do, even with a big time attorney.

Why MDC only? Here is a good time to get a restraining order on this jerk. Call the local DA of that county/town, ask them how to file and what to file.

Prater might be getting me on his "property" within the next few months(probably June) especially if he keeps this up. I would love to take out some pent up aggression on a dill hole, such as this guy, by getting him in court. Would make my day.

I think the difference is the context. IT's hard to tell what exactly happened(as far as the feeling in the air) but I doubt the guy was bringing the gun down to show off the new ammo he bought. And again, its a reasonable person standard, so if the guy was making motions or actively showed his gun, then you have some room to step foot on. And I don't think it matters if it was the land owner per se, intimidation meets that statute by a plain reading. Good cause is what you would have to argue, and good cause to illicit a threat, well? Did the situation get to a point that a threat is needed? Probably not, unless there is another side to the story that I'm not hearing. Besides that, the thing is these guys need to know the law. Whoever said you can't step foot out of the canoe is wrong, this was established long ago unless there is a statute on hand that expressly states otherwise. This needs to get straightened out, and I think that the god ol' boys running the sheriffs office need to have a refresher course on tresspassing laws, what a person may do in defense of their "property."

I understand your point Wayne, but the guy was armed, made a threat to TC and you do not have the right to use deadly force in defending property. With that, there seems to be a legitimate claim of harassment on this person. A person is not entitled to play the role of John Wayne just because the guy thinks he owns the river. And I don't think this guy wins out on the case if it is brought to a court. Elder simply does not put that much emphasis on navigability. That case started out with testing whether the Maramec was navigable in that area, but the court determined that in fact the area was not navigable. Despite that area not being navigable, the court still affirmed the right of the public to fish and wade in that area. That, in my readings, is the holding of Elder. Is this debatable? Sure, that is why you pay a lawyer to argue. Then it gets to the nitty-gritty, however I think the fact that there are access areas in this river, it has a history of being floatable, and the strong language of a MO Supreme Court Case that has not been overturned in 50(?) years makes for a real uphill battle for anyone, including a well funded adverse party. Farm Bureau be darn in my opinion, Stare Decisis doesn’t value money or litigation fee’s.

So, after a couple of coffee's this morning and time to think about the situation, here is what I would do if I were you guys. I would first call the sheriffs office, tell them what happened. TC, I would tell the sheriff that this guy threatened you and that he had a pistol on his hip, exact words and context and tell them you think you were harrased(quote the darn statute if you have to). I would also call the MDC, they have an interest in this as this is a floatable river and you guys were in the right. If nothing happens, that is when you start banging people's heads off the concrete by calling local representatives and possibly filing for a restraining order. That is what I would do, you can always play hardball, but sometimes sugar is easier to swallow for the other side.

Harassment. 565.090. 1. A person commits the crime of harassment if he or she: (1) Knowingly communicates a threat to commit any felony to another person and in so doing frightens, intimidates, or causes emotional distress to such other person; or (2) When communicating with another person, knowingly uses coarse language offensive to one of average sensibility and thereby puts such person in reasonable apprehension of offensive physical contact or harm; or (3) Knowingly frightens, intimidates, or causes emotional distress to another person by anonymously making a telephone call or any electronic communication; or (4) Knowingly communicates with another person who is, or who purports to be, seventeen years of age or younger and in so doing and without good cause recklessly frightens, intimidates, or causes emotional distress to such other person; or (5) Knowingly makes repeated unwanted communication to another person; or (6) Without good cause engages in any other act with the purpose to frighten, intimidate, or cause emotional distress to another person, cause such person to be frightened, intimidated, or emotionally distressed, and such person's response to the act is one of a person of average sensibilities considering the age of such person http://www.moga.mo.gov/statutes/c500-599/5650000090.htm You're going to have to find the SOL on your own TC. But this should start you on the right path. Anyways, is it just me or the "you'll be in a world of hurt" coupled with the fact that the guy had a friggin' gun just screaming (6) of the above statute.

If you're catching fish consistently over 10lbs then I'm saying "pictures or it isn't happening"

AGGGHHH. You can't say with 100 percent on way or the other. The ruling is that you could create a law school final with this. The problem is that MO has a very gray law on this. Cricket, in all honesty I think that you should call up either the attorney general or maybe even just a local attorney who specializes in water rights. First thing I would do is complain about this guy. Especially with the facts that you accessed this stream at a public access point, and were floating on the stream. How long has Shoal Creek had public access(and this is a sincere question on my part)? I think that maybe you should call up the MDC too, complain that this guy is harrassing floaters. PM Sent.

Wow, might be an ozarkanglers record here, Tupac. Used to listen to him all the time when I was in high school through early college. I can't say that I listen to him to go fishing though. I think I've lost my faith in modern music. I think that my newer CD's are about 15 years old. Neil Young is a big favorite of mine, although I can't profess to really love his new stuff(go figure, the stuff that wins him a grammy). Nirvana, Bob Dylan, Cream, Rolling Stones. . .

It's not spring creek fishing, but farm ponds can be great. Going to my uncles pond here in a few weeks and I can't wait. I'm the only one who fishes it, there is a bunch on LM Bass and big blue gill. Plus, this year I'm going to bait the grass carp in and do some Fly rod cheating style.

BTW, someone should mark this down on a calendar as I think this is the first time OB, Tim Smith and I all agree on something.

Look, law is substance over form, period. You might try to characterize this as a transaction for ones "time and labor" but the end result is that you want shad, right? If I were you I would check with both Texas(I'm assuming that's where you're going to take them) and MO as you are soliciting services from the Joplin/Carthage area. Characterizing a drug deal as paying for ones "time and labor" isn't going to save you from violating laws, the analogy should be fairly obvious. So I think a reasonable person would want to make sure they are in the right on this one, as this would probably be across state lines, right? Well, I guess this would be relevant if he were asking for people in those states to get shad for him, but he specifically requested MO area. I'm very sure that MO has a legitimate interest in regulating the activities of MO state impoundments, if shad were taken from there then MO law would probably apply barring some other significant and overriding interest in the state of Texas. As for those other states, you would have to check their statutes, which is what this guy should do by the way. Things get pretty hairy with the feds when things get transported across state lines. Just FYI.

It's remarkable when a person is in good enough shape at that age to shoot around his age. Happy B-day.

I know that I've seen the prices of hackle go up, been looking to get a brown neck and a grizzly neck. I hope this passes soon and doesn't linger much longer. The thing that gets me is that these women look stupid with feathers in their hair(I guess no ones told them that that though).

any word back?