Gigging vs Smallmouth conflict

[SKMO]

its the jet boat & MDC's boat ramp building binge that really opened up a lot of previously inaccessable water to mass recreaton as well as gigging.

Gavin - How can you complain about the "ramp building binge" when providing public access and building ramps was a major component of the 1976 "Design For Conservation" initiative under which MDC still operates?

http://mdc.mo.gov/conmag/2002/03/30.htm

This webpage gives a good overview of what the DFC was and is. In it you will find a specific section regarding stream access, with specific and measurable statewide objectives. I for one appreciate all the accesses since I use them a great deal, so I guess I am part of the problem you envision.

Seems to me that if MDC did not build stream accesses then we would have something to complain about. As I see it they are doing exactly what they promised to do: provide public access to public waters.

It's a two edged sword for managers: providing access and encouraging use of our natural resources while at the same time managing and protecting those same resources. On top of that you have a wide variety of users all competing for the same resource and space. Often the presence of one group infringes on another group's enjoyment of the resource and maybe lessens the quality of their outdoor experience, even when everyone is abiding by the rules and regs. Quite a balancing act for managers. In the end I think we have to realize we can't all have our way all the time and some of us are probably going to be miffed occasionally when things don't turn out our way.

[Gavin]

SKMO, I'm sure youll find out that I can and will complain about anything MDC does that I dont agree with. At the moment, I think we have to many MDC owned boat ramps. No boat ramp = Fewer motor boats and fewer floaters, and thats fine by me. Cheers.

[UAK squirrelpie]

No boat ramp = Fewer motor boats and fewer floaters, and thats fine by me.

i second that!!!

[ollie]

Wow, I don't check this thread for a day or so and all you guys don't play nice! I don't think banning gigging is the answer either and I don't think anyone here is advocating that option. Although it is banned in other states. I don't know the answer either, but I like Al's suggestion of monorting a certain stream to see if it really is a problem. I was in QC for many years and the only way to fully understand a problem is to set parameters and evaluate the true facts and go from there. Stay consistant, monitor the facts and draw a conclusion from the facts, but set fair and reasonable parameters.

[Kicknbass]

Your pal the maul swinger

Thanks Maul Swinger

a gigging stamp!--with education!

That will be tough on the corn liquored up Hill Billies.

Wayne,

Look what you started by posting that article on gigging. You should be proud. You have reached out to the pro and con gigging crowd, the pro & con bear baiting crowd, the pro and con jet boat crowd, and the pro and con boat ramp building crowd.

Forsythian,

You must admit, the chicken leg bit was funny.

It's amazing all of the opinions that come out on a forum such as this. I really enjoy reading all of this bantering even though I don't agree with it all.

One thing I think we can all agree with is that none of us like to see sport fishing harmed by poachers. whether it come by the way of a gig, or other means. Enforcement is the key, not changing the laws. If the MDC had a greater presence on the waters of the state, targeting areas such as the SMB management waters, the poachers would be deterred. Many of the folks that take short bass or bait fish for trout in fly only water are causal users that are uneducated or just don't think they will get caught. Nothing educates better than a good stiff fine.

I spend 50 - 60 days on the water fishing or in the field hunting and seldom see an agent. Nothing agents the agents, most that I have met are great folks. They are just spread too thin. The MDC needs to allocate more $$ to the agents in the field to help police the waters of the state.

Al mentioned the SMB management area on the meramec. Wow, talk about a place that is over used. Most summer weekends, you can cross the stream on the canoes and rafts w/o getting your feet wet. Limiting the outfitters ability to put boats in the stream would help. The shear numbers that use the river trash the place up. That’s where the good responsible giggers come in. There’s nothing like practicing your gigging technique by removing the many beer cans in the river after the summer floating season is over. Can anyone give the giggers an at-a-boy for that.

[jscheetz]

At-a-boy for picking up cans. Of course until you get the rest of the corn liquored hillbillies to quit throwing their bottles in the river - it's cancelled out -

I agree that usually more laws aren't the answer. But somewhere along the line we have to be realistic. There is just no money for more agents. Probably not going to be either. It's sort of like in a town near where I grew up - they put a curfew on for 11pm for all kids. They did not have the man power in the police force to patrol the area since there were so many kids hanging out and getting into trouble. It was much easier for a few officers - if they saw a kid out after 11 it was a simple deal, instead of seeing 20 kids standing about and trying to figure out which one was causing trouble.

We have too much water to be left unattended. Maybe rotate the areas that are available or open so the agents could properly do their jobs.

btw - IS there any limit on any of the streams as too how many canoes can be on them? They do that in other places but I didn't know if they do that in the Ozarks or not. My first guess would be due to the "traditions" down there - that they would not. Let me know if you can.

JS

[gonefishin]

Thanks Maul Swinger

I spend 50 - 60 days on the water fishing or in the field hunting and seldom see an agent.

Al mentioned the SMB management area on the meramec. Wow, talk about a place that is over used. Most summer weekends, you can cross the stream on the canoes and rafts w/o getting your feet wet. Limiting the outfitters ability to put boats in the stream would help. The shear numbers that use the river trash the place up. That’s where the good responsible giggers come in. There’s nothing like practicing your gigging technique by removing the many beer cans in the river after the summer floating season is over. Can anyone give the giggers an at-a-boy for that.

I think you are probably observed more than you think during those 50 to 60 days. Speaking for myself, when I am fishing/hunting I am usually after fish or game animals not conservation agents. Anyway at times when I just know I am all alone I have been startled by gamewardens when they walk up and ask for my licence or how the fishing is ect. What I am trying to say is I think conservation agents see more than a person realizes - I dont think most agents want to molest your fishing or hunting so they choose if/when to approach or confront a person.

OH NO!!! Now the giggers are beer can killers! When and where is it all going to end? Have they no shame. <---- thats a joke

Seriously I don't think there should be a limit on the number of beer/pop cans a person can gig. The more the better in my opinion.

[Simsmarine]

Seriously I don't think there should be a limit on the number of beer/pop cans a person can gig. The more the better in my opinion.

Providing they can tell the difference between a Bud Light can and a brown bass.

[Wayne SW/MO]

excellent suggestion, they require it for deer/turkey (unless you were born before 1960 something).

I don't think that is to teach you the difference between a brown Whitetail and a brown Guernsey, but to teach gun safety.

The bottom line is that some giggers, just a few I'm sure, can decimate the population of a species by targeting them at a time when conditions are poor for recovery and the opportunity for harm is high. I think control in some areas and enforcement in all is the answer. Enforcement should be addressed because it s not just in gigging that the county agents are overwhelmed. The difference in enforcement has gone from one agent in a county to two in some since the '50s and it ain't enough.

I agree with Gavin that the ramps do more harm than good, and they aren't access. Access is a different animal.

[Al Agnew]

Several things...

First, about the whole enforcement thing. There are a number of problems with enforcing gigging regulations. For one thing, it's done in the dark, so it's inherently more difficult to police. For another thing, the giggers are mobile, and the agents have to be mobile as well. And don't depend upon waylaying the lawbreakers at the boat ramp. On the Meramec in the Steelville area, there are a bunch of private boat ramps and private places where somebody can get a boat into the river. I'd be willing to bet that some of the illegals are using the private accesses to avoid any agents.

Wayne brings up a point that the enforcement people I've talked to at MDC always bring up...just because you're not being checked by an agent doesn't mean the agent isn't watching you. It sounds good. But I have a real problem with it. I've been checked exactly three times in my long in the tooth life on Ozark streams...no, I take that back, I've been checked twice and have seen one other agent. If the whole aim of agents is to catch lawbreakers, that might be a good thing. But if it is to PREVENT law breaking, the more visibility the agents have, the better. If the agents spent more time being VISIBLE on the streams, the lawbreakers would think about it a lot more. Gigging is no exception. If the agents traveled up and down the rivers a few times each gigging season (heck, one thing is for sure, it's easy enough to find the giggers when they're gigging!), and also spent time at the ramps, I'm pretty sure it would put a damper on any gamefish gigging. Problem is, gigging season is also the height of hunting season, and the agents are spread even more thin than they would be at other times of the year.

Is fishing better now than in the past? I don't think so...not on the larger streams. Smallmouth fishing on rivers like the Meramec and Gasconade started declining in the 1980s, and it has never recovered to what it was before then...especially for larger fish. I knew a lot less about catching big smallmouths in the 1980s than I do now, but if you average out the number of 18 in. plus smallies I caught from the Meramec back then (per trip) compared to what I catch now, there is no comparison. Yes, part of it is fishing pressure, which increased almost exponentially with the advent of jetboats, but so has the catch and release mentality. The fish just aren't there in the Meramec like they once were, and it declined with the use of jetboats. In my opinion, at first it was because the jetboat wakes totally screwed up spawning, because I watched the catch rate of smaller bass drop off very steeply while I was still catching bigger fish. But I think the bass have adapted to jetboat wakes to an extent, and now it is SOMETHING else that is keeping the big fish population down. The Meramec has not suffered any spectacular pollution, fish kills, pools filling in, etc. during that time, so it isn't an environmental factor.

As for the special management area on the Meramec...yes, it's full of partiers, tubers, rafters, and canoers during the summer (especially Friday through Sunday). They bother the fishermen but they don't really bother the fish. If they did, I'd never be able to catch ANYTHING out of Huzzah Creek! The bad thing is, that section of the Meramec has to be the WORST section to choose to make a special management area. It's still too cold from Maramec Spring (along with a couple of other springs) to have the kind of growth rates in smallmouths that stretches further downstream have. If I had my druthers, I'd much rather see a section either from Birds Nest to Onondaga or Onondaga to Meramec State Park as a special management area, because those sections DO have excellent potential to grow big fish. So I'm not real sure how much impact an experimental ban on gigging would really have on the present special management area, but it would seem to me to be worth a try.

I might wish that gigging had been outlawed many years ago, long before the advent of the jetboat, which I guarantee you has made gigging both MUCH more popular and MUCH more efficient. But outlawing it now is not, in my opinion, an option, because it WOULD be totally unfair to the law-abiding giggers. Nor am I advocating more special management areas with bans on gigging in them. It MIGHT be both doable and good for the resource to ban gigging on a FEW special management areas, along with some more creative regs on those areas. In my opinion, a one fish 15 inch limit on smallies makes little sense if you're trying to grow true trophies. I'd like to see a slot limit in some areas, something like 4 fish under 14 inches and 1 over 20 inches, or even something like they do in Alaska on some salmon streams, where you are allowed just a certain number of salmon per year, and you punch and date a ticket for every one you catch. When your ticket is punched, you cannot keep another salmon, and if you're found on the water with a salmon and your ticket is full, the last hole punched better be for that date. So to allow anybody to keep one trophy smallie a year on these stretches, you get a ticket and you punch it when you decide to keep one 20 incher or better.

Bottom line is, Ozark streams have the POTENTIAL to grow a lot more 20 inch smallies than they do. Compared to streams in a lot of other areas of the country, from Oregon to Minnesota to Pennsylvania to Maine, Ozark streams suck when it comes to big fish, and there isn't a whole lot of reason for it. I think illegal gigging is only part of the problem, but it IS part of it.