The Canoe Vs. Kayak Debate

[Al Agnew]

JD, you just proved my point--"I have not tried any of the solo canoes..." A decent solo canoe is NOTHING like a tandem canoe, and you simply CANNOT compare a tandem canoe to a solo kayak of any kind, nor can you dismiss canoes unless you HAVE tried a solo. I guarantee you my solo drafts as little water as any kayak you'll paddle, unless you weigh a whole lot less than I do. I also don't see a whole lot of difference between a 12-14 ft. solo canoe and a 10-12 ft. kayak as far as tight places are concerned, and what you might gain in tight places with less length of boat, you lose in more length of paddle. As far as tipping over, in something like 20 years of paddling solo canoes a LOT, I've gotten wet by accident three times, and one of those was not really an accident, because I tried to run a little concrete dam, but knew it was risky so I took my gear out before running it. And although some anglers may not appreciate this, I routinely carry five fishing rods in the solo with me, all of them within easy reach, and all of them with tips inside the gunwales of the canoe and protected from getting snagged on brush. If you can do that with ANY kayak, including the Native, I'd be extremely surprised.

I agree with you that kayaks can be more stealthy for hunting. I don't see that as any kind of an advantage for fishing, however.

[jdmidwest]

When I think of canoe, I think of the 16'-19' boats I have owned or fished from over the years and I think the guy in the other thread was looking at a longer boat also. My statements were a comparison to that size boat. I have never been in a solo canoe, so I can't comment on them. I am sure they are fine craft and anyone that wants one should buy one. I don't recall seeing too many of them on rivers.

Just don't knock kayaks based on a few paddles in a rental boat. I don't carry 5 rods, I carry one rigged and a spare tucked away. I don't pack for a 5 day float, mine are day trips. I don't do whitewater, I hunt and fish out of them. The best feature is you are in a comfortable seat all day and your back does not hurt when you get out.

[RSBreth]

Boy, I'll have to disagree with you on the comfortable chair thing. I never had a back ache as bad as when I floated from Hootentown to Galena in my Kayak. (That I have since sold.)

Something about having my legs straight out. I use one of these in my Old Town Pack canoe, and sometimes just put my foot up on the thwart like it's an ottoman!

Canoe sit-backer at bass pro

I guess I need to let more people paddle my solo, it seems folk just aren't keen to what one will do.

I looked and now Old Town Has pimped up the pack just for fishing. I will have to have two now!

Old Town Pack Angler Solo Canoe

[Al Agnew]

Just one final note, JD, and I'll let it go...I've paddled in some good kayaks, not just rentals. The comparisons I'm making are mostly of features inherent to kayaks and solo canoes, assuming that both are good designs. And in the other thread, the guy asked for opinions on tandem canoes, so I assumed he wanted something that two people could paddle in. That's why I took the discussion over to this thread, because I didn't want to hijack his thread with discussions of solo craft, either kayaks or canoes.

The bottom line, in my opinion, is that kayaks are fun and they are serviceable fishing craft, but they are simply not as versatile as solo canoes FOR FISHING. If you're in the market for a solo FISHING vehicle, you can't beat a solo canoe. But the current kayak craze makes most people THINK that the yak is the only choice you have if you're wanting a solo paddlecraft. I would venture to bet that the vast majority of kayak owners are like JD...they never tried a solo canoe.

[Al Agnew]

Boy, I'll have to disagree with you on the comfortable chair thing. I never had a back ache as bad as when I floated from Hootentown to Galena in my Kayak. (That I have since sold.)

Something about having my legs straight out. I use one of these in my Old Town Pack canoe, and sometimes just put my foot up on the thwart like it's an ottoman!

Canoe sit-backer at bass pro

I guess I need to let more people paddle my solo, it seems folk just aren't keen to what one will do.

I looked and now Old Town Has pimped up the pack just for fishing. I will have to have two now!

Old Town Pack Angler Solo Canoe

Interesting stuff on the new Pack...

My first solo canoe was a Pack. I loved it, but I quickly figured out that I could improve upon it by adding some things and modifying others. The first thing is, the seat on the Pack is simply too far back. Move that seat up to where the front edge of the seat is pretty close the the center of the boat, and the Pack tracks better without sacrificing any maneuverability. Second thing I added was a removable anchor system, but I ran it off the BACK of the boat. I wonder why Old Town elected to run it off the front. I used a homemade seat back for many years, but have gone to the Sitbacker myself these days...extremely comfortable, I can't imagine that any kayak seat would be as comfortable. I also wonder whether the seat on the new angler version would be as comfortable as a Sitbacker. I like the workstation with storage beneath it. You could add a storage pack that straps beneath your seat and have room for quite a few lures to carry!

I gotta say that, for the price they are asking for the Pack, you can probably get a solo that paddles better and trick it out yourself. That's one of the complaints I have with "angler" boats...my ideas of what I need may not correspond to the manufacturer's ideas, and I'd rather trick it out myself. With my homegrown system, I can carry 5 Plano 3701 boxes, 4 Plano 3600 boxes, and all of them within easy reach and off the bottom of the canoe. But I like the idea of the workstation...might look into doing something like that but removable on my Vagabond.

That's the other thing about "angler" modifications. I kinda like the stuff you add to the boat to be easily removable. They add weight and sometimes they make it more difficult to carry, so if I'm using a really bad, inconvenient, have-to-walk-a-long-way access, I want the boat to be as light and easy to carry as possible.

[Gavin]

I know more than a few yakers that wouldnt mind trading for my solo canoe...If any St. Louis area kayakers want to float a solo, you are welcome to paddle mine...might be surprized at how nice they are to fish from. Here's a pic of mine from a float on the Meramec last June. Forward compartment...Pelican Waterproof Gunnel Box. and Cooler.. Sitbacker canoe seat. Aft Compartment, Egg Crate to hold misc tackle rain gear, etc., Anchor Lift & Lock mounted on the back.

[RSBreth]

Al, did you put you tackle boxes amidship, or were they more forward? I usually have a takle bag and small cooler shoved far forward, may be the reason mine tracks fine for me and seems balanced. Or since I'm usually paddling with my B.F.I. skills (brute force and ignorance) I don't notice.

[Al Agnew]

Shifting things with weight to the forward will help tracking, but you still have the problem of the seat position. The farther back the seat is, the more any straight paddle stroke will want to turn the canoe, unless you have so much weight forward that the front end is lower in the water than the back end. And that makes turning TOO difficult. If YOU are close to the middle of the canoe, your strokes need less correction, but the canoe is still easy to turn when you want to. You can turn it with what I'd call a forward-reaching pry, which is reaching toward the front of the canoe and pushing the paddle straight outwards, or a forward-reaching draw, which is pulling the paddle in toward the front part of the canoe, essentially pulling the front end in the direction you want to go. I do that one a lot when I want to turn the canoe to the side I'm paddling on without switching sides. Can't do it with your seat too far back. Sweeps still work well to turn the canoe while powering forward(reaching forward, pulling the paddle outward and backward, then as it passes your body, turning it inward, so that the paddle makes an arc around your body). And regular pries and draws work a lot better if you're in the center...you are pulling or pushing the canoe sideways by reaching straight out and pulling the paddle straight toward you (draw) or starting against the side of the canoe and pushing straight outward (pry). By changing the angle of the blade in the water, you can even make a draw or pry turn the canoe in place without moving much forward, backward, or sideways. But if your seat placement is too far back, pries and draws turn the canoe when you don't want it to turn.

Yet you can still use ordinary J-strokes to keep the canoe going straight, and the J doesn't have to be very strong. A slight feathering of the paddle blade outward at the back end of the stroke is all you will need for at least several strokes.

The only thing the Pack was never much good at was ferrying, and I ferry a LOT. Ferrying is turning the canoe so that the back end is angled in the sideways direction you want to go, and backpaddling. It's the most useful technique you can ever learn for running fast water on Ozark streams. For instance, the biggest danger, and the way most people get in trouble, is when you encounter a fast, curving riffle with a sweeper tree or log on the outside of the bend. Centrifugal force wants to push the canoe right into the obstacle. If you do as some of the guidebooks, including Oz Hawksley's old book "Missouri Ozark Waterways", suggests and paddle faster than the current in such a place, you're turning the FRONT end of the canoe away from the obstacle, the current is hitting the side of the canoe, and pushing it even faster INTO the obstacle. And when you hit the obstacle, you hit it sideways, the final ingredient in that recipe for disaster. If you paddle hard enough to avoid the obstacle, you may miss it but the front end ends up in the eddy on the inside while the current is still hitting the back end, and you turn a doughnut, not very expert-appearing. So what you do is basically point the front end of the canoe INTO the obstacle, and backpaddle. You have more control, you're slowing the canoe down in the current, and the current is actually hitting the side that is facing TOWARD the obstacle, and helping to push it away. Once the front end of the canoe gets past the obstacle, it's easy to straighten it because the front end is out in more current while the back end is in the eddy or slower water toward the inside of the bend, so the current helps you. And if you miscalculate and hit the obstacle, you hit it with the front end and not sideways, and you're less likely to flip.

But the Pack always turned too easily. I'd get it at the right angle to ferry, but the next back paddling stroke would turn it even more. And the last thing you want to have to do is switch sides or make frantic correcting strokes in the middle of fast water. For ferrying to work well, you need a canoe that resists turning a bit more than the Pack. My present solo, the Vagabond, is much better at ferrying. I use it not only to avoid those obstacles, but to ease into back eddies. If you stick your front end into a back eddy, the canoe turns around backwards. If you backpaddle your back end into the eddy first, the front end follows, sliding right into it, and your canoe straightens up.

Sorry if I've bored you with the paddling lesson, kinda got off topic a bit.

[Greg]

A few days ago I posted another thread asking for advice about a fishing kayak vs an inflatable pontoon. I had just about decided on a sit on top kayak. I had never thought about a solo canoe. It sounds interesting for sure. One drawback to the solo canoe though is cost. From what I've been able to gather the cheapest you can get into a solo canoe is about $800 or about twice what a SOT yak costs. Not that everything always boils down to $$ but it is still a consideration.

Greg

[Wayne SW/MO]

Like Al, I find that my Mohawk tracks poorly and is very touchy when attempting to ferry. The reason goes back to what can be a plus and thats maneuverability, something fishing kayaks lack for the most part. There are trade offs, like in everything boating, but I have developed a preference for comfort and quickness of the solo. The solo is not as stable, but thats relative and may or may not ever make a difference.

Greg a good fishing kayak is going to cost you close to the same, about 75%, probably, of a solo.