Protecting The Bass Population?

[Phil Lilley]

You're spot-on, in my opinion.

I read this whole thread, then went back and reread some of the original comments that sparked the trouble to try to understand the arguments a little better. I don't regularly visit this forum and never go to TR, but I do fish (mainly trout, but also bass) and practice C&R almost exclusively. Have I learned anything from this thread? Sure - I'll be more aware of spawning bass and avoid them like I do trout redds. But there was sure a lot of extraneous nonsense in the thread that didn't really add to the discussion.

It's ok to be passionate about something -- in fact, it's good. But, you're far more likely to get people to understand or adopt your point of view using solid, reasoned logic and polite dialogue, rather than with a personal attack. Just sayin'.

Best response yet... thanks!!

[Jon]

I will state this again and the last time for the RECORD. Bass harvest limits on Table Rock are not set to control the Black Bass Populations. PERIOD DONE.

Wildlife such as deer and turkey have limits set for populaton control

Black Bass limits are set at a resonable ammount to encourage useage of the resoruce. This generates dollars with very little concern on Table Rock about adversley affecting the populations by over harvest.

With 100's of millions of tourist dollars at stake here the limits are set to encourage people to use and come to Table Rock lake on their yearly vacations, knowing full well, the few fish they harvest will in no means effect the populations in any manner. I believe the harvest is still less that 1 keeper bass for each 8 hrs. of fishing. The tourist are not hurting this population.

Locals, guides and long time Table Rock fisherman, are the people that control the harvest.

I know for a fact that it was recommended that the limits be dropped on the Rock after the 1999 fish kill. This was rejected do soley to the negitive impact that it would have on tourism to the lake Big State Tax Dollars. Limit reduction was rejected because of money, with no real thought of the resourse. These fish have had a rough go with the kill and the Corp's of Engineers, and have weathered it and are in wonderful supply.

Mostly because a huge percentage of the population is released to spawn multiple times in their lifes, and bring joy to multitudes of people by being caught and released over and over. When that 16inch Kentuck, smashes that Zara Spook, I don't care how many times she has been caught before. Only that she was released to hit and fight again. I know, if that continues she will be able to spawn for years in the future, most probably up to another 1/2 million eggs from the time she is 15 inches till her death, as late as 15 years old. It is my joy in life to give anything that gives me so much pleasure the gift of life.

The Biologist at MDC know that the harvest is very select, and that the larger percentage of Black Bass Fisherman are catch and release. This is the data that is used.

Remember this, Table Rock is and has to be a self-sustaining resource as far as the Black Bass species is concerend. Poor spawn, good spawn, no matter, it is on its own. No Stocking Here.

If you feel comfortable keeping legal size bass, its your right.

If you feel right using live crayfish, shiners, worms or leaches to catch and kill pregnant females on beds while they try and sustain a non-stocked resourse, go ahead. Let the grand children and their grand children deal with your glutony, what do you care, thats the way your folks did it.

Lets us just go ahead and use up all the natural resources we can and while were at it put the country in the largest debt in history. Let the Grand Kids and their Grand Kids deal with our fundamental lack of repect for who and what we are responsible for. Thats the way our folks did it so it has to be right.

Or, Oh, It's really not a problem however as most of us can catch all we want anytime we want. We have special teniques that really work anytime we go. All the more reason to kill everyone of them we can.

I will not kill these fish as they bring me far to much pleasure. The smiles they put on the faces of the people I take are priceless. The joy of seeing gleaming spotted bass smash a red-fin is one of my greatest thrills. Be pretty hard for me to slice the sides out of something that gives me that much joy.

A heavy thump on a football jig and the Bull Tug of the LM up the James River, where a few years ago, they were almost non-existant. Be really hard to cut one of their heads off.

The screem of the reels drag as that 4 pound SMJ takes off with my grub in the dam area, where as early ago as 1976 they were not even classified as a catchable fish on Table Rock. Know for sure I cannot gut any of these wonderful pullers.

So, from here forth, pleas do not bring up populaton control, it has nothing to do as far as the catch limits of the Bass on Table Rock are concerned. Your tourist dollars do however.

No, for me food is just to cheap and the joys of life to high for me to end any one of them.

I love Table Rock and all the precious fish that swim in her.

Bill, I'll guarentee you 100% that if those fish populations dropped low enough, the MDC would definitley do something with regulations to CONTROL the numbers taken or kept. Money is always a reason for just about everything, because it takes revenue to upkeep the fishery. I will also guarnetee that regulations are set to control populations period. The populations are what bring the tourism to that lake or any lake with resorts or guide services.

The only resaon I could see or understand your comment with the MDC not being concerned with fish populations is the fact that they can restore those populations with stocking programs. But that costs money also. So I can't see this as a viable reason for that comment. Common sense tells me that the MDC is concerned about populations because of money they would have to spend on stocking programs when they could be puting that money to another lake stocking program.

Hipotheticaly, if Table Rock Lake were the only lake in Missouri, it would get unmeasurable fishing pressure. This would cause the MDC to react with A. tighter fishing regulations and limits and or B. a stocking program to keep the population stable. Now this is hypotheticaly speaking. It's not reality but if a lake got as much fishing pressure from non locals as locals, and popluations would dwendle if the proper regulations were not in place.

Why else would the MDC do shocking to count and measure fish other than to get an estimate of the fish population and health or the fishery. It would be a total mismanagment of a natural recource. I realise they use the eggs of target speacies when this happens, but I think they do this to help them regulate populations and thus regulations.

I have several lakes close that are Walleye fisheries. I have some regulations from back in the 80's stating the length limits and posession limits. Length limits have dropped 3 inches since first being stocked. Now why would this be? To me common sense tells me that due to populations of the fish, the MDC has allowed the keeper size to be lowered. Why else would this happen?

I could throw up a few more, but why.

I have nothing against catch and release fishermen. If thats what they want to do, great. I'm not going to hackle a guy at the boat ramp over this. It's what he feels he needs to do. I try to keep a reasonable amount of keepers to eat. I'll eat a Bass just as easy as a Walleye. I know the Walleye is a better eating fish, but fish is fish to me. I'll settle for what I can get. If the Lord blesses me with catching Bass that day then thats what I'll fry. Heck I've released LM back to the water before nice size ones. I try to set a limit on bass, if I catch at least two to three, I'll keep them. If I catch one, it's going back to the water. But make no mistake, The sole reason for fishing for me is to catch something to eat first. Second, I just like to get out on the water. I have probably went out a dozen times and maybe one of those times I've caught keepers.

My take on this whole thing is, I watch these guys on T.V. They are advocates of catch and release and usualy preach this on every episode. I akin this to Global warming or any other thing that catches on. "It's what everybodies doing", or Bill Dance does it so it's got to be " somthing I should be doing" like it's the only correct answer. Of coarse some of these guys release because they are fishing with guide services and thats thier bread and butter or it's a way to keep the PETA nuts at bay.

But I see if enough people cry about catch and release around a certain lake, that there is a posibilty that it could happen at certain lakes. Especialy at lakes that have towns that are supported by guide services and resorts and vacationers dollars. To me, if my tax and permit dollars go towards supporting lakes built by the Corp. of Engineers, then I should be able to keep fish within the MDC regulations without descretion or persicution of catch and release advocates. If a certain lake wants to impliment catch and release only, then it should be a private lake supported by those guides and resorts that operate at that lake and people who want to fish at that lake. Not by the public tax payer.

[Jon]

I am not going to argue with you over your obvious opinion to catch and fry, but you are wrong on these statements that I have quoted here.

At least 90% of bass fishermen are catch and release, and this is why Table Rock is such a great bass fishery. If the majority was catch and fry, as you say, then TR wouldn't be even a decent bass lake.

I will respect your catch and fry policy, as it is your right, and say no more.

Good fishing.

Whack'em

Whack'em, I'll agree with you on one point. Your probably correct that 90% of "BASS FISHERMEN" do practice catch and release. But I'm talking about fishermen as a whole. Your normal down the street next door neighbor fishermen in boat or on the bank is not throwing a legal size Bass back in the water.

As far as a healthy population, As I've stated before, I'm 100% sure that if the Bass population were in trouble, the regulations set by the MDC would be adjusted accordingly or something would be done to secure future fish populations. If they don't adjust regulations or do something, then to me, they are not managing Missouri's fishery correctly. Basicaly not doing thier job.

I respect yours and everyones opinions on catch and release, may not agree all the time on everything. But sometimes these types of arguments catch fire.

I will never haggle anyone for doing so if thats what they want to do so long as they are not looking down thier noses at me for just enjoying catching and eating fish. Lord knows my youngest daughter critisizes me enough for not releasing fish everytime I bring some home.

[Whack'emGood]

Whack'em, I'll agree with you on one point. Your probably correct that 90% of "BASS FISHERMEN" do practice catch and release. But I'm talking about fishermen as a whole. Your normal down the street next door neighbor fishermen in boat or on the bank is not throwing a legal size Bass back in the water.

As far as a healthy population, As I've stated before, I'm 100% sure that if the Bass population were in trouble, the regulations set by the MDC would be adjusted accordingly or something would be done to secure future fish populations. If they don't adjust regulations or do something, then to me, they are not managing Missouri's fishery correctly. Basicaly not doing thier job.

I respect yours and everyones opinions on catch and release, may not agree all the time on everything. But sometimes these types of arguments catch fire.

I will never haggle anyone for doing so if thats what they want to do so long as they are not looking down thier noses at me for just enjoying catching and eating fish. Lord knows my youngest daughter critisizes me enough for not releasing fish everytime I bring some home.

You are right that Joe Shmo doesn't practice catch and release, and that is fine with me... he also doesn't catch very many keeper sized bass.

Also, you are right to be 100% sure that the bass population on TR is not in trouble. It is largely because "BASS FISHERMEN" catch 99% of the bass, and are overwhelmingly catch and release fishermen and advocates.

The MDC takes into account those very facts when they make and enforce the regulations.

I respect your opinion and your right to keep keeper sized bass. I would never heckle you on the lake or at the ramp either-- but please take no offense that I am glad you are in the minority of fishermen at TR-- and the majority of the keeper bass caught on TR are and will be released because of the catch and release practice.

Please keep in mind that we catch and release guys are of this opinion for one basic reason-- to ensure that the lakes we like to fish have plenty of fish for everyone to enjoy (whether they just like to catch and release them, or catch and eat them).

I say let's all just put this to rest, get along, and go out and have some fun on the lake-- we can all agree that we do what we do because we enjoy it... so let's enjoy it.

Whack'em

[Jon]

Not sure if you read all the posts on this topic. You're overreacting to what's been said IMO. You're also addressing the discussion itself and not really the topic or issues addressed here. Ridiculous? Then we shouldn't allow any topics that are remotely controversial IYO?

Yeh that response was alittle over the top. But I've seen what happens when a movement to regulate wildlife get's steamrolling. In example, Antler restrictions. In order to satisfy certain orginizations in this state, MDC passed special antler restriction regulations to improve trophy bucks. Meanwhile the overall populations explode, which was the real reason those regulations were in place in the first place. To control populations and serve the public with a balanced heard.

This topic was orignaly about catch and release vs. tournement fishing in spring over spawning bass. Or something like that. Don't get me wrong, I understand the topic and the discussion it grew into totaly. An yes I was addressing the discussion and not the specfic topic, I realise that per the quote. Are'nt they realated though? Don't you discuss a topic and reply to the discussion as well as the original topic? But since you decided to single my thread out, I'd like to point out that I am pretty sure I'm not the only one with "off " subject threads here.

You want my IYO? I have absolutley nothing against controversial topics, and usually try to avoid them for just this reason. A topic may start as that topic from the start. But topics especialy controversial topics grow into sub related topics or "discissions" as this one has and here we are. Totally off discussion and topic. Yes I read a majority of the threads, and am still addressing the discussion. It may not sound like it to you, but I still respect others opinions, even though I may say things others won't or others do not like. I usualy don't like to "surgar coat" responses when it's something that may concern me. Thus is the reason I try to stay out of these topics.

The over whelming feeling I got from the responses was a genuine dislike or non understanding for fishermen that do not fall in line with the "catch and release" that others view as the only correct way to do it. It may have not been written in words but it's the feeling I got from this discission...... derived from the initial topic.

Yes I probably over reacted at first. To me though a topic is open for discussion as is the discussion. Even though my first response was less than tactful in certain areas. I am only trying to get my point across just like everyone else.

Tell me, in IYO, what part of my response had absolutley nothing to do with the discussion or topic?

So what are we going to discuss next? My bad spelling? Thats usually what gets hammered next.

In closing, I opologise if I offended anyone here, even the catch and release guys...... I'm done.

[Jon]

You are right that Joe Shmo doesn't practice catch and release, and that is fine with me... he also doesn't catch very many keeper sized bass.

Also, you are right to be 100% sure that the bass population on TR is not in trouble. It is largely because "BASS FISHERMEN" catch 99% of the bass, and are overwhelmingly catch and release fishermen and advocates.

The MDC takes into account those very facts when they make and enforce the regulations.

I respect your opinion and your right to keep keeper sized bass. I would never heckle you on the lake or at the ramp either-- but please take no offense that I am glad you are in the minority of fishermen at TR-- and the majority of the keeper bass caught on TR are and will be released because of the catch and release practice.

Please keep in mind that we catch and release guys are of this opinion for one basic reason-- to ensure that the lakes we like to fish have plenty of fish for everyone to enjoy (whether they just like to catch and release them, or catch and eat them).

I say let's all just put this to rest, get along, and go out and have some fun on the lake-- we can all agree that we do what we do because we enjoy it... so let's enjoy it.

Whack'em

OK, now I'm really done!

Have an nice weekend Wack'em, and keep throwing those fish back so I can eat'm. j/k

[Phil Lilley]

Tell me, in IYO, what part of my response had absolutley nothing to do with the discussion or topic?

"To me thats how utterly rediculous this discussion is."

Some of this, most of it boils down to one thing- there are two schools of thought and some gray area inbetween.

One- catch and release no matter what.

Two- catch and keep a limit of bass to eat.

Gray- catch and keep a few every once in a while; never keep bass with eggs (pro & con); never fish for bass on beds (pro & con)...

Divide these groups into two forums and never shall one look at the other's forum BECAUSE the catch and release people don't want to give away any information to help the catch and keep people kill bass.

That's a bit of the mindset of the guides, or most of them, on this forum. They cannot control who reads this but they can control what information they provide. When I say guides this includes other anglers who know and fish any lake as much as guides do. I'd say most are silent- some provide reports on their own sites and don't come on OAF. Some sell their reports to people who subscribe to their mailing lists. All is fine and good- to each his own.

But EVERYONE needs to understand what is fact on any forum- and be smart. It would be really stupid for anyone to come on any forum and thank, say a guide, for the fishing information he provided and follow by saying... "those bass sure tasted good and we had fish eggs for breakfast!" Extreme example I know but it gets my point across.

[Fly_Guy]

I agree w/ ozarkgunner in that additional regs (even if only during the spawn) could go through at TR. And while I don't keep bass, I don't fault those who do.

It's kind of funny - B.A.S.S. has had a TREMENDOUS effect on the minds and practices of modern fishermen. They've turned bass from meat, to celebrity. Not saying it's a bad thing, but it cannot be denied. If Ray Scott, Bill Dance, and Roland Martin, fancied deep divers and in-line-spinners, we would be debating the evils of keeping walleye on this thread. Instead, we keep the heck out of em. And crappie. And white bass. And bluegill. And catfish. And trout. And stipers. Even pike! And every other fish there is. Not saying it's a bad thing - it's good to be passionate - but it is interesting how people's opinions are colored. In reality, a fish is a fish. The insinuation is that people who keep bass are low-down ignurnt rednecks. At least that's the impression I get from Bill. Understand - the impression - not what Bill actually said.

I fished a lake called Wolf Creek Lake (I think it's now Coffee County) in Kansas a few years ago. I don't know if it's still the same, but it had crappie, wiper, walleye, sm, lg and catfish. The limit on crappie was 2 fish per person, minimum of 14 inches. We caught probably 12 crappie, and they were MONSTERS! several over 14 inches, and my buddy and I each kept two. No one frowned on us as we cleaned them, no one made any remarks except 'nice fish!' The lake had a trophy crappie population! (probably still does - I would HIGHLY recommend a trip!). But since the trophy population (sustained naturally by the spawn) had tight regs, and since they weren't BASS, no one cared if we kept them.

I know people value bass as a sportfish. But they're fish, nonetheless. Shoot - they don't fight hard as a bluegill or a white bass! They don't strike as viscously as a pike. (and true - they don't taste as good as any of the species I listed earlier )

So once again... keep a few if you want.

[ness]

I fished a lake called Wolf Creek Lake (I think it's now Coffee County) in Kansas a few years ago. I don't know if it's still the same, but it had crappie, wiper, walleye, sm, lg and catfish. The limit on crappie was 2 fish per person, minimum of 14 inches. We caught probably 12 crappie, and they were MONSTERS! several over 14 inches, and my buddy and I each kept two. No one frowned on us as we cleaned them, no one made any remarks except 'nice fish!'

Well, first of all, we're awfully friendly folks over here in Kansas. Tolerant of other people's opinions, etc. You won't catch any grief from us, unless you come over here burning down our towns again. Then we'll kick some arse, just like we did in The War.

Wolf Creek is still there. It was privately owned by KCPL (used as a cooling reservoir) up until the late nineties then it became a county lake (still used for cooling). Fishing's still good from what I hear, though I haven't been in a number of years. Wonderful fishery with good populations of small mouth, large mouth, walleye, crappie and others. I think the nuclear power plant might have something with the size of the fish.

[Whack'emGood]

Have an nice weekend Wack'em, and keep throwing those fish back so I can eat'm. j/k

No problem!

You have a nice weekend too Jon.