Other Ozark Stream Or Should I Say Smallie/spot Debate

[Flysmallie]

Wanna take a young dumb kid fishing sometime?

I'll go and make sure he behaves himself.

[FishinCricket]

I'll go and make sure he behaves himself.

How can you be so sure I wasn't suggesting that he take you fishing? lol (jest teasin')

[creek wader]

Al, You always make a good point. I haven't eaten a bass in years. But, if the conservation dept. would take the length limit, as well as the possession limit off of spots in the Osage river,and it's trib.'s. I would do my part.

In my experience of fishing the Osage and it's tribs., the past 5 yrs., this is what I've found.

I catch spots 10 to 1 to largemouth in the Osage. And it's at least 20 to 1 spots to smallies. The problem is most of the spots run under the legal length of 12". I've caught "sport" spots darn near every cast, in the past on the Osage. It's like catching gills in a farm pond.

The N. fork of the Moreau is chock full of spots and has a good population of largemouth. But I've never caught a smallie on it yet. But, I'm working on it.

On the S. fork of the Moreau, it's 50/50 spots to smallies, with a decent pop. of largemouth.

The Lower Tavern and the Lower Maries has a large population of spots, at least 50/50 to smallies., and a decent pop. of largemouth. On the upper sections the smallies are still holding their ground (er... their water). My guess is it's 5 to 1 smallies to spots, for now, anyway. Also, a decent pop.of largemouth.

These numbers may not be accurate but, it's what I've experienced. If the Consv. dept. would legally make it worth my while, I'd pick off quite a few of the little spots and fry em up. But, if I only catch one keeper (12">), a trip. I'm not going to mess with dragging him around with me all day, while I'm wading.

.... wader

Classic Osage spot

[eric1978]

Al, You always make a good point. I haven't eaten a bass in years. But, if the conservation dept. would take the length limit, as well as the possession limit off of spots in the Osage river,and it's trib.'s. I would do my part.

In my experience of fishing the Osage and it's tribs., the past 5 yrs., this is what I've found.

I catch spots 10 to 1 to largemouth in the Osage. And it's at least 20 to 1 spots to smallies. The problem is most of the spots run under the legal length of 12". I've caught "sport" spots darn near every cast, in the past on the Osage. It's like catching gills in a farm pond.

The N. fork of the Moreau is chock full of spots and has a good population of largemouth. But I've never caught a smallie on it yet. But, I'm working on it.

On the S. fork of the Moreau, it's 50/50 spots to smallies, with a decent pop. of largemouth.

The Lower Tavern and the Lower Maries has a large population of spots, at least 50/50 to smallies., and a decent pop. of largemouth. On the upper sections the smallies are still holding their ground (er... their water). My guess is it's 5 to 1 smallies to spots, for now, anyway. Also, a decent pop.of largemouth.

These numbers may not be accurate but, it's what I've experienced. If the Consv. dept. would legally make it worth my while, I'd pick off quite a few of the little spots and fry em up. But, if I only catch one keeper (12">), a trip. I'm not going to mess with dragging him around with me all day, while I'm wading.

.... wader

Classic Osage spot

I can't tell you how much I hate it, but lately I've been just carrying a cheap plastic box-cutter with me when fishing the Meramec system. If I catch a spot I sever their spine and toss em up on the bank. I hate hate hate killing anything, I don't even like killing bugs...but with the spots it's the right thing to do, so I do it. I like eating fish, but like you said, dragging them around all day is really a pain and those worms are a real turn-off to me.

[Greg]

It's like picking at a scab...you just can't resist.

Biological surveys as well as fishing experiences have shown that on the stream stretches where spotted bass are not native but are in the process of invading, they compete very directly with smallmouth. It appears that it is very close to a one to one thing...the more spotted bass, the fewer smallmouth. In my own experience, total numbers of the fish I catch on average don't change much from year to year in those sections where the spotted bass are increasing rapidly, the only change is in the ratio of smallmouth to spots. I think that's important. Stream where spots are not native and never were there before. Spots replacing smallmouth so thoroughly that it seems that for every spotted bass that gets into that stretch, there is one less smallmouth. The fewer smallmouth, the fewer BIG smallmouth. And the spots don't grow as big on average. Result--basically the loss of 250 miles of what was once excellent water for BIG smallmouth in the Meramec River system alone, replaced by a fishery for mostly small spotted bass with the population of smallmouth over 18 inches probably 10% of what it once was. I simply can't stress this enough--the LOSS, within a 25 year period, of 250 miles of PREMIER big smallmouth fisheries in one river system.

But...the real question is whether killing spotted bass is doing any good. Maybe, maybe not. Maybe it's simply too late, and we can never take out enough spots to make a difference and bring back some semblance of the smallmouth population that was once there. But one thing is for sure, if the spots AREN'T being taken out, the smallmouth fishery will only get worse. And we'll never know whether taking them out will help unless every angler who cares about the smallmouth kills spotted bass IN THESE STREAMS. Call it an experiment.

Maries River, Tavern Creek, Moreau River, were among the first streams where spotted bass were not native that were invaded by spots. They've been in them long enough, and been protected equally with the smallmouth long enough, that they've probably reached an equilibrium with the smallies. Maybe that's the case in the streams of the Gasconade and Meramec systems, as well, or soon will be. The "experiment" of killing spotted bass to protect and enhance smallmouth populations is only going on in the Meramec system. In that system, the biologists WANT you to kill spotted bass. It's the only way they'll know whether the experiment works. So...I believe that we should kill all the spotted bass we legally can in the Meramec River system, if for no other reason than to cooperate with that experiment. If it is then shown to be an effective strategy for protecting smallmouth populations in such streams, then it should be extended to the other streams where spots were not native.

In the streams where spotted bass ARE native, there is really little reason to advocate more harvest of spotted bass.

It might be a rehash but for me your post here makes me realize how serious this situation is. I had no idea. I primarily fish for trout now but I grew up fishing for smallmouth on the Finley. How sad if this continues or gets worse.....

Greg

[Chief Grey Bear]

It's like picking at a scab...you just can't resist.

I get the same itch too.

Could we take this 2006 post of yours and just change "otter" to "kentucky bass"?

There is some question as to how abundant otters originally were in the Ozarks, with some authorities asserting that they were always rather rare. This doesn't really make much sense to me, since I can't imagine the Ozarks were not good otter habitat.

It's true that conditions on many streams are much different, and much less favorable to fish and other aquatic creatures, than they once were. I think it's true that the streams that suffer most are those with degraded habitat, especially lack of large, deep wintering pools. I also think, and hope, that we've seen the worst of the adverse impact of otters. Whenever you introduce (or re-introduce) a creature to an ecosystem where it's niche was not being filled before, it will often thrive to the point of overpopulation until the ecosystem "adjusts" to it. In the case of otters, I think it has taken their prey species, especially game fish, a while to adjust to their presence. I suspect that eventually otters and their prey will reach equilibrium.

I think the Ozarks is a richer place with otters, even though I don't like that they have really done a number on some stream smallmouth populations. I think and hope that eventually their re-introduction will be a positive.

[cwc87]

Regarding the osage river and spotted bass. The osage is supplied by fresh supply of largemouth and spotted bass anytime one is swept through bagnell dam turbines or when the flood gates are unleashed all kinds of species is spilled over the dam. I believe a bigger problem is the asian carp over populated and feed on the tiny organisms that little bait fish need to survive. Just my thoughts on this subject.

[hoglaw]

I can't tell you how much I hate it, but lately I've been just carrying a cheap plastic box-cutter with me when fishing the Meramec system. If I catch a spot I sever their spine and toss em up on the bank. I hate hate hate killing anything, I don't even like killing bugs...but with the spots it's the right thing to do, so I do it. I like eating fish, but like you said, dragging them around all day is really a pain and those worms are a real turn-off to me.

Al's posts make lots of sense to me, and I agree that invasive species should be dealt with aggressively to a certain extent. However, you might want to be careful with this approach. Not sure about Missouri, but in Arkansas it's a game and fish violation to "waste the edible portion of game fish" if I'm not mistaken. I've done the same thing on private ponds for management purposes at the behest of the property owners; just don't want anyone to get in trouble.

[eric1978]

Al's posts make lots of sense to me, and I agree that invasive species should be dealt with aggressively to a certain extent. However, you might want to be careful with this approach. Not sure about Missouri, but in Arkansas it's a game and fish violation to "waste the edible portion of game fish" if I'm not mistaken. I've done the same thing on private ponds for management purposes at the behest of the property owners; just don't want anyone to get in trouble.

Thanks for the tip, I'll look into it. I'm torn because I want to do the right thing for the stream, but I'm not going to drag a bunch of stinking dead spots around with me in the canoe all day. I do hate killing anything, especially when I'm not going to eat it. But I also hate releasing a spot when I know it probably means one less smallmouth.

[KCRIVERRAT]

Hey guys, I'm just a member putting in my two cents. Mostly I want to ask questions about this subject. If I'm not wrong, seems like most of the people who have a problem with the spotted bass populations overtaking their creeks, streams, or rivers reside in the eastern part of Missouri. Meaning the Meramec, Bourbeuse, Big (maybe?), or any other river or creek that eventually feeds into the Mississippi. Will the Gasconade or any other major rivers like the Big Piney ever have this problem? Currently, does the Huzzah or (that stream that starts with a "C") have that problem now?

Doe's being in close proximety to St. Louis have any effect on those streams? Mainly the Meramec, Bourbeuse, or Big? Surely downstream the effects are seen, but does it effect anything upstream?

I do not see any one complaining about spots in the LOZ forum. Are they not there? I fish the Little Niangua River and that's about all we catch there. A few brownies yes, but, I enjoy my experience there. Where did those spots come from?

Lot's of spots in SW Missourri too, including Table Rock. Where did those spots in the Rock come from? Not from the Mississippi.

Spot's have won tourneys for the BASSMASTER champions. Are they going away?

No.

And... my favorite fish... a SMALLMOUTH!