Old Man River

[eric1978]

That’s for sure eric1978,

You should see a picture my father in law has of a limit of crappie. You don’t see that any more. My own grandpa used to tell me stories of fish caught on the Gasconade and Little Piney. I never knew for sure if they where just stories or the truth. He did however before he died, took me fishing and helped me get my first true 5lb bass at the age of 9. After that I don’t know who got hooked worst. The bass on my hook or me on fishing but we both wanted back in the water real bad! LOL I’ve been chasing the dream ever since.

Indeed I believe your right wayne sw/mo,

A limb line is the way to go instead of a trotline but I’m not looking to do either. I’m just trying to locate the areas where you would run a trotline (or limb line) if you were going to. There’s a reason for that but I can tell you because it’s so top secrete, so highly classified that not even the President of the United States is cleared to know this information! Well, at least according to most of the posters on this forum anyway! LOL

You know I find it funny that people can be so greedy and selfish in thinking they have found the secrete honey hole and won’t tell anyone else where it is. Let me ask you something. Have you ever floated a stream or river and been so alone it made you feel as you were the only one who has ever seen that stretch of the river before? I bet it has and I bet you a million bucks that it’s just an illusion. Someone could have floated through there an hour before you did! A day, a week, a month, a decade ago but someone has already been there ahead of you. It’s the same for all these fishing spots. You might fish the same spot every evening all summer long and never see a soul. In your mind you’re the only one who knows about this spot. However reality might be a little different if you were to change your routine and go fishing in the mourning one time and catch the guy who’s been coming there every mourning all summer long, who thought he was the only one who knew about this spot. Get the picture? There are people you don’t even know that know about your spots and still there seems to be enough fish to satisfy everyone.

Some people are just preprogrammed to be greedy, selfish, and stingy. There have been countless times in my life where I have come up to a spot right behind someone else leaving and caught fish. Now that means one of two things. Either there were more fish than they could catch or I was just a better fisher man than them. Maybe they were just using the wrong bait, lure, presentation, left just before the fish moved in or a thousand other variations from what I did. I get the impression that people feel that if they told others where they caught fish that the very next day there would be a hundred people standing there and the place would be so fished out that not even the birds would come anymore! LOL People think this way because of places I like to call dead zones.

We’ve all seen these places. Usually at a park or easy to get to spots at the lake where a billion million people go everyday. The spot is well worn down, bait tub and hook packages litter the ground with bobbers and fishing line hanging from the trees. Surly if everyone that stood there caught at least one fish there can’t be anything left! Right? Well maybe you didn’t use the right bait, the right lure, the right presentation, or just got there at the right time. And then again maybe you did and you’re right, there is nothing there, maybe there never was. These spots are formed by people of opportunity. Their there so they fish. The majority do so because they have no where else to go, they know no other spots to try! I wonder what’s the point of teaching our children to fish if all their going to find is the dead zone spots. Surly they won’t want to fish for long. WE need to share the resources we have with others. Remember their fee’s for licenses help to pay the way for better fishing for all of us. They help keep the bait stores and tackle shops we like to shop at open.

Bottom line is there are no guaranties in fishing. Just because you tell me where there is a good fishing spot doesn’t mean I’m going to catch anything. But the opportunity to try stirs me on and it will others too. Let’s spread the dead zone crowd out and give them a chance to appreciate what we take for granted. Some of you guys are maniacs and fish everyday, (Some people like Fishingcricket need to seek professional help LOL) but most people only get to fish now and then. If we share our knowledge and spots with them they will learn to appreciate the environment and help keep it clean and their dollars will help support us all.

I agree with you to an extent, but I'll add a couple caveats to your philosophy:

Bigger bodies of water that hold more fish aren't as fragile as small creeks and streams. I have no problem telling certain others which stretch of river I fished or even which sections within those stretches were most productive, as long as I think the river can handle more people fishing it. Even then, I try to be selective about who I tell. There are many folks on here that I trust with that information, because I know they are conscientious anglers who practice catch and release. However, you have to realize there are a lot of lurkers on this forum and others like it, who may or may not be people you want hanging out at your favorite spots.

Discovering productive places to fish is a pay-off of lots of time, money and energy spent searching for the magic holes. I think a nudge in the right direction for the right people is more than acceptable, but by and large I think finding honey holes is every angler's personal responsibilty, and it's more rewarding to find them on your own. I'm not saying don't take your best friends and kids to your favorite spots. Quite the contrary, I think good fishing is best when sharing it. But thoughtless and disrespectful anglers (I hesitate to call them anglers) can spread like the plague if you're not careful. Tell the wrong person, he goes and takes a limit. He tells a couple of his buddies, they take a limit, they tell their buddies...and so on. And the next thing you know, no fish. I agree with you that sometimes you think a place is fished out but in reality you're either doing something wrong or the fish are just off, but it is possible to decimate a fish population on a stretch of river. For this reason, I try to limit what I say on a public forum. I have a few favorite spots I won't tell about and some small creeks I would NEVER mention to anyone I didn't completely trust. They simply can't handle any more pressure. It's not that I don't want others to enjoy those places, it's just that you never know what kind of people they are.

Many stretches of our Ozark streams are already heavily fished, and I don't really have a problem with keeping some of the fruits of my labor to myself.

[Buckshotdad1960]

Thank you Daveinozark,

See this is what I’m talking about people! Here’s a young guy trying to get out there. (I know he’s young because he’s not afraid to ask for help)

Really? You never fished before you got here? Wow, that’s kind of like saying I never had sex before that hooker! LOL But that’s ok kid! We all have to start some where and I’d say you’re on your way! We all should get out there and explore on our own. I believe a man has the responsibility to pay his dues with trial and error. I know I’ve paid mine. But the learning starts with talking to others, reading magazines and books, watching videos and outdoor shows. There’s nothing wrong with knowing what you’re doing before you get there or knowing where you’re going. You’ll soon be able to fill in the blanks. What kind of knowledge are you seeking grasshopper?

[eric1978]

from what i hear, these rivers were in a world of hurt and conservation efforts have only paid off recently. Probably didn't want to fish much back then. Like you, Buckshot, I'd like to learn as well. Mostly because I haven't lived here 1 year yet, and never fished before I got here

I've seen some old wrinkly black and white photos of some MASSIVE stringers from the old days taken on some of the same rivers I fish today. I can tell you the days that you catch numbers of BIG fish like that are few and far between, if they exist at all.

You're right though, some rivers were hit really hard by the industrial revolution (Big River comes to mind), but many weren't heavily effected by it and were in much better shape a century or 75 years ago. I've talked to some old fellers with some good stories about the good ol' days.

[Buckshotdad1960]

Well eric I’m sorry you feel that way, even more , I’m sorry to say that you may be right on a few points. There are the unethical hand full of guys that seem hell bent on ruining everything they touch for everyone else. Common sense and the leave it like you found it attitude seems to be able to escape some people. Of course one might argue that a way to change that would be from the revenue created from more fishermen to increase more education and enforcement of the laws. Look around you. If only a hundred people lived in your town and 10 of them were fishermen fishing the river, next year those numbers would double. And the year after? Keep your best spots to yourself if you feel it makes you happy but be ready for someone else to find them anyway. Those that feel included in the gift strive to take care of it while those that feel left behind and excluded soon give little regard to the gift of nature as they develop a why should you be happy when I’m not attitude. Food for thought.

[eric1978]

Well eric I’m sorry you feel that way, even more , I’m sorry to say that you may be right on a few points. There are the unethical hand full of guys that seem hell bent on ruining everything they touch for everyone else. Common sense and the leave it like you found it attitude seems to be able to escape some people. Of course one might argue that a way to change that would be from the revenue created from more fishermen to increase more education and enforcement of the laws. Look around you. If only a hundred people lived in your town and 10 of them were fishermen fishing the river, next year those numbers would double. And the year after? Keep your best spots to yourself if you feel it makes you happy but be ready for someone else to find them anyway. Those that feel included in the gift strive to take care of it while those that feel left behind and excluded soon give little regard to the gift of nature as they develop a why should you be happy when I’m not attitude. Food for thought.

I know I'm not the only person fishing my favorite spots. Even on the small creeks I occassionally fish, there is evidence of other anglers (case and point). I'm just saying that it's okay to keep a few cherished honey-holes to yourself. Believe me, I don't have that many secrets. I wish I had more, so I could share more. I like to catch fish, so I guess maybe I'm a little selfish about it. But every time I see garbage in the river or see a stringer of smallmouth, it makes me clam up even more. Can't help it.

[Flysmallie]

There are the unethical hand full of guys that seem hell bent on ruining everything they touch for everyone else.

Drive to any of our local stream accesses on a nice summer day and you will see how unethical the people I call river trash really are. And if you get bored with that you can jump in a canoe and join the group that can afford a canoe and have enough left over to buy their kids some clothes, but most of it's the same old trash. However I do meet some great people on the river.

To get to the good fishing you are going to have to get in a canoe and go find it. Where's it at? Hell I don't know, most of these rivers were just flooded. I'm sure some spots have changed. I mainly fish the James. And if you really want to know, mostly between Kerr and Galena. And traffic has really increased over the last couple of years. Hard stretch to have a good time on a weekend in the summer.

Several years ago there was a huge tree laying the river just down from a nice riffle. Over time the water had washed a nice deep hole under that tree and that deep ditch ran about 20 yards downstream. It was exactly 1.1 miles below Kerr access. I know because I carried a gps down there once. I spent a lot of time wading to and from that tree over a couple of years and always caught a lot of fish. One year it was gone, just not there anymore. Plus the deepest part is maybe waist deep, probably less now. What I'm trying to tell you is that there are plenty of spots to find fish between the accesses. They are not hard to find, a good fisherman knows what a good section of water looks like. All some are trying to say is go look, you will find what you are looking for, we just don't want to broadcast the spots that we have, because you never know when they will be gone. Do other people find them? Hell yeah they do, seen lots of people fishing that old tree many times. And it never quit producing until it was gone.

Another thing is that it would be tough for most to give you some specific areas when we don't know what you are after. In one of these posts you talk about a trot line, then say you would rather have a limb line and then say you just want to fish in an area that would be good for a limb line. For what? I know some great places to run a limb line for catfish on the James, but that's all there is there is catfish. Tell us what you want and maybe somebody will help you with what you want.

And if you are looking for crappies for that darn pond, I have no idea. I'm no crappie fisherman but I would bet that Stockton or Table Rock would be the place to go.

[Wayne SW/MO]

But every time I see garbage in the river or see a stringer of smallmouth, it makes me clam up even more. Can't help it.

I think there are a lot of people that way, I'm one of them.. I'm not that secretive about what I know, just who I tell it too. If you look at threads that have fishing reports in them the lookers far outnumber the posters, and I'll bet many of the lookers never post. They keep making more fishermen, but not waters to fish in.

River trash? I know of a couple of MDC accesses on rivers in the south central area that are always trashed. I have to assume that id they care that little about the bank, what do they care about the resource?

I suppose as far as deep holes go the James has some, but I can't think of any I would call deep on the Finley. I don't fish the Finley that much, so I'm not a good source of info. Deep to me is probably in the 8-10' range and I'm not absolutely sure they are that deep. You might check out the hole at the Hootentown access, not sure how deep it is.

[smallmouthjoe]

There are a couple, but they don't let on how much they know.

Can you imagine how good the fishing was on their rivers when they were kids? I'd give anything to go back and fish during, say, the pre WWII era.

Hell man let's take it all the way back to 18th century. That is if I could take my modern fishing tackle with me. I would have loved to fish The James and The White before it was darn.

[Buckshotdad1960]

Well there is certainly some credibility behind your views. I think we can all recognize the picture you paint. We’ve all seen the local poor white trash ignorant beer drinking hillbillies do their thing. I don’t like it any more than you but before we become too self righteous and adopt the better than tho attitude, lets remember least we forget that they were here first and most people who now seek to enjoy these resources are outsiders. You’ll never convince the hillbillies that they should back off and let you have full run at it. In fact these same river trash people as they have been referred to are the very same people we need to be talking to. They know where these places are, they live here and a lot of what they know has been handed down to them. The one thing I love about the river is that it does change from year to year or every few years in certain places. However some places never change and seem timeless. Old tried and true tactics that produce fish never change either. One thing that has changed around here is the lack of solitude for the local. As big developers move in building homes for the rich outsiders along creeks known for their swimming and fishing holes. The local finds himself squeezed out. Then the rich have arrested anyone who doesn’t own a home in their little community for trespassing if they dare to venture back in. The courts are all to willing to milk a fine or two out of the already poor and displaced hillbilly. No wonder they trash the place up, they hate the rich and the law. Again, like i said those you exclude will feel left out, abandoned, denied, unwelcome and unwanted. In the very same places they use to call their’s! Duh! Does anyone else get that but me? I think your fears are justified but just over imagined. And I to would like to see more people post than what do but it could be that they don’t post for fear of rejection. Let’s face it some of these guys that are on here are in the top elite of their fields and that can be intimidating to some folks. Not everyone is as out going as you and I.

I asked where people put out trotlines not because I want to put one out but because these are the types of places that will hold the kinds of fish I’m looking for. The channel, the flathead, the walleye and yes the crappie. Even the great smallmouth bass holds up in deep holes for the winter.

It is not my point here to be the poster child for why you should post and share your spots. I only wish that more people would. Some people will not share their knowledge or their spot and they have their reasons why and that’s fine but those who will share should be encouraged to do so. After all, you never know, maybe even you will learn something. How can you get to know a river without spending a small fortune, with the time and effort that goes with that, if people are not willing to be honest and share their experiences of what they caught and where?

[Flysmallie]

You'll never convince the hillbillies that they should back off and let you have full run at it. In fact these same river trash people as they have been referred to are the very same people we need to be talking to.

First of all I never said that I am better than them. Yes I make sure my kids are dressed before I spend all my money on a carton of cigs, a case of beer and a bag of weed. But they have just as much right to fish these streams as I do. I just prefer to get away from them so I can find the fish I'm looking for. If you want to go talk to them then go ahead, I doubt you will find what you are looking for from this crowd.

Again, like i said those you exclude will feel left out, abandoned, denied, unwelcome and unwanted. In the very same places they use to call their's! Duh! Does anyone else get that but me? I think your fears are justified but just over imagined. And I to would like to see more people post than what do but it could be that they don't post for fear of rejection. Let's face it some of these guys that are on here are in the top elite of their fields and that can be intimidating to some folks. Not everyone is as out going as you and I.

Not even sure how to respond to all this but if this group wants to feel a little less left out then maybe they should start following the laws that the rest of us follow. You have to give a little respect to get some. These locals that you feel so compelled to back are the exact ones that are destroying our streams with their trash, empty beer cans littering the stream and disregard for all game and fish laws. You go ahead and talk to the guy with the stinger full of 10 inch bass, but again I don't think these are the guys you want to be talking to.

I asked where people put out trotlines not because I want to put one out but because these are the types of places that will hold the kinds of fish I'm looking for. The channel, the flathead, the walleye and yes the crappie. Even the great smallmouth bass holds up in deep holes for the winter.

Honestly, good luck on the cats, walleye and crappie. I'm not your guy for them. But I rarely find a smallmouth in any of the deepest holes, even in the dead of winter. I would say that my best luck comes from fishing water less than 5ft deep. That's probably more of a product of my fishing style. I don't like to fish deep slow pools.

It is not my point here to be the poster child for why you should post and share your spots. I only wish that more people would. Some people will not share their knowledge or their spot and they have their reasons why and that's fine but those who will share should be encouraged to do so. After all, you never know, maybe even you will learn something. How can you get to know a river without spending a small fortune, with the time and effort that goes with that, if people are not willing to be honest and share their experiences of what they caught and where?

So since I spent all of my time and money finding the fish I like to catch I should just turn that info over to the whole world to see so that everyone can have the same success? I guess I don't see the logic in that, but, so you understand my reasoning, I have been burned by that in the past by someone I considered a friend. So I think I will save that information for the the folks that I fish with and myself. I fish because I love it. Not because I want to get on a public forum and share all the things that I do to catch fish. I enjoy this forum and have learned a lot from it. However I have never asked anyone to give up one of their spots to improve my results. Well except for Eric, but that was done in a pm so the whole world didn't see it.

I also think that most everyone is willing to share knowledge on this forum. Yeah you probably won't get the gps coordinates to the exact spot but they usually give up the section of river that they fished along with what was working well for them on that day. Sometimes you have to take the information that you have and put a little work into it. It seems that more and more folks are joing this forum these days just so they can gain the knowledge that they are unwilling to put in some hard work to gain on their own. We have great fishing opportunities in the area we live in, why don't you get out there and search some of them out. Then when you have some succes you can start to contribute more to us than how you think we are all a bunch of jackasses since we won't share everything with you and how fishing in Missouri sucks.