One More Poll On Smallmouth Management Areas

[Chief Grey Bear]

And as far as them (spotted bass) being invasives, they've been cited as such by agencies in Colorado, Iowa, and North and South Carolina.

And the same is said about smallmouth by other agencies.

[drew03cmc]

Smallmouth are non-native in certain waters in the midwest, but are filling a niche in the fishery. I have never said the spotted bass were NATIVE. If I did, find the quote and post it. I have said they were naturally occurring, and have been moving farther north in the past century. The fact that they were native to the south flowing Ozark streams says that they are likely native to the major rivers that are fed by them, the White and Mississippi.

If they were stocked in the Missouri or the Moreau, Lamine, etc, then the blame should be placed upon the MDC (or the stocking authority), not on man in general or on anything else. If they migrated up the Mississippi from the White basin or what have you, then the blame is on the lock and dam builders. It can't just be happenstance that they are moving north as the climate gradually warms up can it? Spotted bass are recognized as a game fish and are not lowly carp.

I hate to see a perfectly good sunfish species treated like such dung by conservationists and "open-minded" fishermen. If you are fishing the same stretches of stream that have been "decimated" by spotted bass and expecting a different result, you are not helping yourself to the smallmouths that are abundant in the headwaters and creeks of your area. Try fishing different streams, stretches or even watersheds.

I will keep saying it. You will eventually have to embrace the spotted bass being in your streams, and think of them as another black bass species to catch. They, like the common carp, are not going anywhere.

[eric1978]

I will keep saying it. You will eventually have to embrace the spotted bass being in your streams, and think of them as another black bass species to catch. They, like the common carp, are not going anywhere.

I can't help but think you'd have a different attitude if this problem was in your backyard instead of someone else's. The correct approach is not to shrug your shoulders and give up on a river and just move to another one. The correct approach is to implement a strategy to make the best out of a bad situation. That hasn't been done yet. Will you please explain why you think the Meramec River is not worthy of effort?

[drew03cmc]

I can't help but think you'd have a different attitude if this problem was in your backyard instead of someone else's. The correct approach is not to shrug your shoulders and give up on a river and just move to another one. The correct approach is to implement a strategy to make the best out of a bad situation. That hasn't been done yet. Will you please explain why you think the Meramec River is not worthy of effort?

Effort, yes. Complete eradication is not an effort worthy of dumping the millions necessary into. If you want the fish eradicated, petition your MDC biologists to use rotenone. They are not going to leave the river without being KILLED, so you should try to deal with the spotted bass, or fish waters which have been sheltered from the influx of spotted bass. The river was a great smallmouth fishery, with numbers and size, but now, you catch more spotted bass than smallmouth, and with some management of the spots, they could attain trophy sizes along with the smallmouth. I would embrace the spots cohabitating with the smallmouth as well as they can. Keep your dozen a day, however, acknowledge that it will be awhile before the Meramec reaches equilibrium with the species.

[fishgypsy]

"Effort, yes. Complete eradication is not an effort worthy of dumping the millions necessary into.If you want the fish eradicated, petition your MDC biologists to use rotenone."

I don't think most people are advocating complete removal of spotted bass from the river system- as you mentioned, it'd be extraordinarily expensive, publicly unpopular, and likely ineffective.

" They (spotted bass)are not going to leave the river without being KILLED, so you should try to deal with the spotted bass, or fish waters which have been sheltered from the influx of spotted bass. "

As I've said, the population of spotted bass could be managed through harvest.

"The river was a great smallmouth fishery, with numbers and size, but now, you catch more spotted bass than smallmouth, and with some management of the spots, they could attain trophy sizes along with the smallmouth.

That's highly unlikely. The growth rate of spotted bass in the Meramec drainage is well below the growth rate of smallmouth from the same drainage- as said before, you typically don't catch spots in those rivers greater than twelve inches. Management of the spotted bass as a sportfish doesn't change the species' growth rate, and you'd likely just get tons more dink-sized spotted bass than any wall-hangers. Aside from that, I really can't understand the benefit of turning an excellent smallmouth fishery into a spotted bass fishery that's mediocre at best. Sort of like trading in your Jaguar for a Ford Fiesta.

"I would embrace the spots cohabitating with the smallmouth as well as they can.Keep your dozen a day, however, acknowledge that it will be awhile before the Meramec reaches equilibrium with the species."

One species outcompeting, hybridizing and replacing another is not cohabitation. One species being replaced from its native range by another is not "equilibrium." Smallmouth and spotted bass apparently, obviously, can't cohabit in these systems- that's sort of the whole point.

[drew03cmc]

"Effort, yes. Complete eradication is not an effort worthy of dumping the millions necessary into.If you want the fish eradicated, petition your MDC biologists to use rotenone."

I don't think most people are advocating complete removal of spotted bass from the river system- as you mentioned, it'd be extraordinarily expensive, publicly unpopular, and likely ineffective.

" They (spotted bass)are not going to leave the river without being KILLED, so you should try to deal with the spotted bass, or fish waters which have been sheltered from the influx of spotted bass. "

As I've said, the population of spotted bass could be managed through harvest.

"The river was a great smallmouth fishery, with numbers and size, but now, you catch more spotted bass than smallmouth, and with some management of the spots, they could attain trophy sizes along with the smallmouth.

That's highly unlikely. The growth rate of spotted bass in the Meramec drainage is well below the growth rate of smallmouth from the same drainage- as said before, you typically don't catch spots in those rivers greater than twelve inches. Management of the spotted bass as a sportfish doesn't change the species' growth rate, and you'd likely just get tons more dink-sized spotted bass than any wall-hangers. Aside from that, I really can't understand the benefit of turning an excellent smallmouth fishery into a spotted bass fishery that's mediocre at best. Sort of like trading in your Jaguar for a Ford Fiesta.

"I would embrace the spots cohabitating with the smallmouth as well as they can.Keep your dozen a day, however, acknowledge that it will be awhile before the Meramec reaches equilibrium with the species."

One species outcompeting, hybridizing and replacing another is not cohabitation. One species being replaced from its native range by another is not "equilibrium." Smallmouth and spotted bass apparently, obviously, can't cohabit in these systems- that's sort of the whole point.

So, how do you feel about the trout fishery in Taney, or in any of the White River streams where smallmouth were the historically dominant species? They have been pushed out of their native waters by stocked rainbow and brown trout that are not native to the region or continent even...

[eric1978]

The river was a great smallmouth fishery, with numbers and size, but now, you catch more spotted bass than smallmouth, and with some management of the spots, they could attain trophy sizes along with the smallmouth.

For every spot in that river, there is seemingly one less smallmouth, and since that is not the river's natural predisposition, passing regulations to protect spotted bass is the exact opposite of what should be done. It makes no sense through the lens of conservation, and it makes no sense practically for angling opportunities...I don't know this as fact, but I have a feeling that spotted bass cannot reach large sizes easily in the Meramec system. A fish kill would make no sense because the spots would eventually find their way back and repopulate, and therefore MANAGEMENT through REGULATION seems to be the only way to HELP the river.

Farther upstream there are far more smallmouth than spots, but their march continues, and that's why I think it's important to implement protection NOW to help the rightful inhabitants of the stream fight their battle against the invasive species. If your favorite smallmouth stream was being taken over by some invasive species of little catfish, and for every catfish you lost a smallmouth, would you just say, oh well, guess I'll fish for catfish? Or would you say, something's wrong here and something needs to be done to fix it? I'm guessing the latter.

And look, I don't know how this conversation turned back into the old smallie vs. spot debate, but it's just one of the issues that concern me on just one of the river systems that I believe need help. I want to see new regulations and better management on ALL streams, including the ones closer to you, not just the ones that I fish frequently.

[fishgypsy]

So, how do you feel about the trout fishery in Taney, or in any of the White River streams where smallmouth were the historically dominant species? They have been pushed out of their native waters by stocked rainbow and brown trout that are not native to the region or continent even...

I'm not sure what that has to do with the growth rate of spotted bass in Big River.

But to answer your question in a roundabout way, the White River is a poor example. Yes, some water went from smallmouth to trout fisheries. But thousands of acres of land was impounded, providing much more smallmouth habitat that would have otherwise been present. Sort of a wash, in my mind.

If I had my way I'd be able to paddle from Springfield to Arkansas, fishing the White River for big smallies- but that's completely out of my control. But those dams were put in well before my time, and they're not going away. Spotted bass in the Meramac, however, is a fishery I feel people have more control over.

I'm not opposed to non-native sportfishes. I've fished for trout in the Ozarks, for muskies in Pomme de Terre, and farm ponds for bass and bluegill. What I am opposed to is destruction of fisheries- be it by gravel mining, pollution, or invasion and replacement by other species.

[Phil Lilley]

So, how do you feel about the trout fishery in Taney, or in any of the White River streams where smallmouth were the historically dominant species? They have been pushed out of their native waters by stocked rainbow and brown trout that are not native to the region or continent even...

You're forgetting about the dams. Nothing natural about dams.

[fishgypsy]

It can't just be happenstance that they are moving north as the climate gradually warms up can it?

I guess I'm having a hard time wrapping my mind around this. Here's my thoughts

It's definitely possible spotted bass are expanding their range due to shifts in climate. But the Ozarks have been exposed for hundreds of millions of years, right? And in those hundreds of millions of years, the climate has shifted- sometimes warmer, sometimes cooler- right? That means it's likely that the temperature regimes of Ozark streams likely shifted as well, right? Sometimes warmer, sometimes cooler?

And yet for hundreds of millions of years, spotted bass never colonized the Meramec or Missouri River watersheds or at least, if they did, they never established themselves. If it's as easy for them to move around and colonize new rivers as easily as you assert, how come they waited till the 1980's to do so?

I think I've shown pretty good evidence this situation isn't no way "natural"- spotted bass clearly were not native to north-flowing Ozark streams, spotted bass were stocked into the Missouri River system, sometimes by public agencies. Those fish replaced native smallmouth populations, hybridizing and outcompeting the natives. The problem with spotted bass in these streams isn't that their an inferior sportfish. They have poorer growth rates compared to smallmouth in the same streams, and don't reach a large size.

If you have evidence that it is a natural process, I'd love to hear it, as opposed to re-hashing the same talking points over and over.