Southwestern Missouri Smallmouth Alliance

[fishgypsy]

Also, education is a huge factor for Neosho smallmouth bass. People as a whole are not aware that they are holding a genetically diverse species of smallmouth bass in their hands. These fish only live in a SMALL portion of the Ozarks of Missouri, Kansas and Oklahoma, and as such, should be treated as a threatened or endangered species with C&R regs and what not. Global warming? You don't want my opinion on that. I just hope that you can research the species of concern in that area before beginning this meeting in April. Micropterus dolomieu velox is a unique species and I hope you give it the respect it deserves.

I was under the impression MSA advocates conservation of smallmouth bass, regardless of their genetic makeup. Unfortunately, bigots like Andy want to see preferential treatmentment of one smallmouth bass race over another. I'll be the first to stand up against this centrarchid apartheid, who else is with me?

Seriously though, MSA is for conservation of smallmouth bass. Since Neosho smallmouth are smallmouth bass, wouldn't they fall under the umbrella? If the members want to champion the cause of Neosho smallmouth, so be it. If they want to make fishing better on the Niangua or James River, so be it. Make your chapter of MSA whatever your members want it to be, I think you're doing a fine thing, and I'm not going to throw stones from the outside.

[drew03cmc]

Not going to throw stones, just call names. There is no bigotry here, nor apartheid. Just wanting the native species in the SW Missouri Ozarks to get the treatment they deserve. They may be smaller in size, but are larger in fight. These fish are a real, natural jewel, and as such, we, as a whole, should be educated on them, their range and their history.

The Neosho is only found in a total of something like a dozen counties (may still be a little high) in three states. I guess, though, that the MDC's championing of rainbow trout in a place where they are NON-NATIVE is ok, encouraged even. I have stated repeatedly that I support the MSA, with the provision that they do not group all smallmouth in this area as one species as the MDC does.

I am hoping that the MSA does not focus on the bigger, more popular water, but rather on true conservation of a threatened species.

[fishgypsy]

You don't appear to have researched much on the streams in this part of the Ozarks apparently... Also, education is a huge factor for Neosho smallmouth bass. People as a whole are not aware that they are holding a genetically diverse species of smallmouth bass in their hands...I just hope that you can research the species of concern in that area before beginning this meeting in April. Micropterus dolomieu velox is a unique species and I hope you give it the respect it deserves.

And I don't think it's fair of you to chide others for not doing their research while the information you provide is incorrect. If education is what you want:

MDC recognizes one species of smallmouth bass in the state because there's only one species of smallmouth bass in the state. It's that simple. Micropterus dolomeiu velox is as much a species as an albino catfish. It was formerly described as a subspecies of smallmouth bass, but that naming has been revoked after further review of the fishes' morphology and genetics. It's a genetically distinct race of smallmouth bass, a smallie with some aberrant spine counts and coloration.

The Neosho smallmouth IS unique, it IS important to educate the public about them, and it IS important to conserve those genetics, but the Neosho smallmouth IS NOT a species.

They are still smallmouth bass though, so I would assume an organization such as the MSA would be interested in them. But it's up to the members to decide what they do and how they spend their time.

EDIT: And I simply don't buy the argument that working to conserve native Neosho-strain smallmouth is any "truer," that working on drainages other than the Spring River is somehow less noble than focusing on Neosho strain smallmouth. Conservation is conservation, regardless of where it is taking place.

[Gavin]

I'd suggest that you put up or shut up...Join up and put your Neosho's ON THE AGENDA of an organization that that should want to do good for those fish..They arent on the agenda at the moment, primarilly because its an East Side organization at the moment, but that can change. Just one of the benefits of organization. Cheers.

[Kicknbass]

Kicknbass, you must be a member of the MSA to join the forum, so I am sure that is why it rejected your registration. There is a link on the website to join by paypal if you wish to do so.

I get that concept, but I don't recall anything on the website stating that, or during the sign in point. Even the rejection email doesn't indicate a membership requirement. Only rejection w/o a stated reason. Pretty weak.. I don't feel to compelled to send them any money at this point.

[ness]

Kicknbass -- we discussed this about 50 posts back. You're not just skipping to the end are you?

[Wayne SW/MO]

Kicknbass it clearly states some of the forum is members only. I don't know the reasoning behind it, but if its to keep location info from meat hunters, I think its a good thing.

Drew, Andy whoever you are, if you're really passionate about doing something, perhaps you should quit attacking Gary's efforts and support them, along with a membership.

The

Neosho is unique in its variation, but I don't see any different attitude from any other stream bred smallie. What do you think the MDC should do to help them, given the fact the gene pool is probably tainted?

[drew03cmc]

And I don't think it's fair of you to chide others for not doing their research while the information you provide is incorrect. If education is what you want:

MDC recognizes one species of smallmouth bass in the state because there's only one species of smallmouth bass in the state. It's that simple. Micropterus dolomeiu velox is as much a species as an albino catfish. It was formerly described as a subspecies of smallmouth bass, but that naming has been revoked after further review of the fishes' morphology and genetics. It's a genetically distinct race of smallmouth bass, a smallie with some aberrant spine counts and coloration.

The Neosho smallmouth IS unique, it IS important to educate the public about them, and it IS important to conserve those genetics, but the Neosho smallmouth IS NOT a species.

They are still smallmouth bass though, so I would assume an organization such as the MSA would be interested in them. But it's up to the members to decide what they do and how they spend their time.

EDIT: And I simply don't buy the argument that working to conserve native Neosho-strain smallmouth is any "truer," that working on drainages other than the Spring River is somehow less noble than focusing on Neosho strain smallmouth. Conservation is conservation, regardless of where it is taking place.

They are a separate subspecies as recognized by the National Wildlife agencies. Micropterus dolomieu is the parent species, while the m. d. velox is a subspecies. They are genetically different, just as the fluvial arctic grayling is genetically different from the adfluvial grayling. How about rainbow trout and steelhead being considered different? They are both oncorhyncus mykiss, and as far as I can recall, genetically identical. Where is the difference? How about kokanee salmon and sockeye? They are the same species, but one is landlocked. Atlantic salmon and landlocked salmon, same thing AFAICR. The smallmouth subspecies also look different. The TN strain is a more girthy fish, whereas the Neosho is a leaner, more streamlined fish with the lower jaw extending beyond the upper far enough that the teeth can be seen from overhead. When did I say the Spring River is the only stream. The Spring, Shoal, everything in that area, including the Elk all go someplace. It is that parent drainage that deserves concern. You read part of my post, not the other.

Kicknbass it clearly states some of the forum is members only. I don't know the reasoning behind it, but if its to keep location info from meat hunters, I think its a good thing.

Drew, Andy whoever you are, if you're really passionate about doing something, perhaps you should quit attacking Gary's efforts and support them, along with a membership.

The

Neosho is unique in its variation, but I don't see any different attitude from any other stream bred smallie. What do you think the MDC should do to help them, given the fact the gene pool is probably tainted?

You don't see any attitude difference? They prefer different water. The Neoshos are more at home in more current than the other strain due to their body type. Also, in my experience, the Neoshos are more reckless when they hit something. Velox literally means swift, and that is the type of water Neoshos are at home in. You will NOT find a Neosho in a lake. They do not like big water. How would the gene pool be tainted? There are no TN strain fish in the watersheds in question.

I would be unable to attend meetings due to the 4 hour drive required, but am considering joining for all the perks that go with it.

When did I bring Gary down? I have repeatedly said that I am in full support of what they are doing, but don't go in blind without knowing about the area's streams and inhabitants. I am glad he is doing this. I have said this, but the word spam also got thrown around due to the 13 postings of the same message on this forum.

[Wayne SW/MO]

Have you fished for the Tennessee strain much?

I don't know, what strains are in the John Day in Oregon, the Kennebec in Maine, the Snake in Washington, the streams in western MO, northern AR, and eastern OK?

You had to post this on a Blue Ribbon Trout Stream's subforum? Honestly? This is almost forum spamming.

And this is where it started. You were indignant that he posted on a stream forum, in which I've fished for trout and smallies, because it had a Blue Ribbon! As if that gives it shrine status. The post didn't diminish the forum, it only insured that everyone was aware of what was happening. If you want more attention for the Neosho strain, I believe that's the term, the MSA is the first stop, just don't expect its members to drop other endeavors to focus only on the Neosho strain.

[eric1978]

Hey, Gary, I thought you may have info that I hadn't read or seen. That is why I asked if you could share your info. I wasn't throwing punches. But I may have to run that by Ness and eric to confirm.

Whaddya think Eric? I say we give him a pass on this one, even thought it was dayum close!

Of course he gets a pass on this one...there's nothing wrong with rational debate on any subject. I was just pointing out earlier that CGB was being contrary for the sake of contrarianism...you know you do that sometimes Chief. I thought it was superfluous criticism, that's all.

Carry on, fellas. I'm enjoying reading the same debate we've had a thousand other times. Let's keep bickering over the tiny details instead of banding together to protect what we all care about in general.