Msa's Blue Ribbon Panel Update

[Wayne SW/MO]

First off there is no use in discussing a C & R only on stream smallmouth because it not going to happen, not to mention its not needed. The main issue is and has been quality and yes a state wide will work because the streams, while having little regional problems, tend to be the same in the Ozarks, whether its in AR, OK, or MO.

If you have information on the Neosho's, good solid info, than share it. I can't find any definitive study that makes the claim, or supports one, that they are smaller genetically. There is apparently conflicting information that they differ genetically from other stream smallmouth.

You can never expect a fish to maintain a color pattern across a wide area, because they don't. Trout don't do this and neither do largemouth bass, and if I remember right Al Agnew has pointed out that smallmouth don't.

So at this point its probably best to get the best deal we can and apply it to all stream smallmouth in this state.

[Al Agnew]

Look guys, it's going to take a concerted genetic study to determine everything we need to know about the smallmouth of the Ozarks. And it's only been in the last decade or two that an in-depth genetic study was even possible. But I think you can look at the same connections I talked about at length in all the spotted bass threads and get some idea of how the genetics WERE, before humans started messing around with them.

The Neosho/Grand river system empties into the Arkansas River at the western edge of the Ozarks. Nearest watersheds to it as far as connections are the southern Arkansas Ozark streams that also run into the Arkansas, like the Mulberry and Big Piney. Everything else in the Ozarks runs into either the White (which empties into the Mississippi right around the mouth of the Arkansas), directly into the Mississippi, or into the Missouri River up in Missouri. Therefore, the Grand/Neosho river system is isolated slightly from the southern Ozark streams, more isolated from the White River system, more yet from streams running into the Mississippi, and the most isolated from streams running into the Missouri. This has been true for a LONG time, since the Ozarks have been in their present configuration for a very long time. So even though the Neosho/Grand streams have their headwaters very close to some Missouri River tribs (like the Sac and Pomme de Terre) and are also very close to some White River tribs (the James, Flat Creek, and upper White), their smallies should be genetically isolated from the smallies of those streams.

So, as was pointed out by somebody above, the genetics of Neosho/Grand river system smallies should be different from those of White River fish, and more different yet from Mississippi and Missouri river tributary fish. Enough so to be a separate subspecies? That's always been the argument. I would think it's probable that the genetics are different, but it's a matter of degree.

As for the rest of the smallies in the Ozarks, there may be more differences between Missouri River tributary fish and upper Mississippi tributary fish (these would include Niangua, Gasconade, and Meramec fish) as opposed to lower Mississippi and Arkansas river fish. Because as I pointed out in the spotted bass stuff, those big rivers likely weren't good connections back when the Missouri was spewing great amounts of silt into the Mississippi. I think it's possible that the smallies in the White River are quite different genetically than smallies in the Gasconade. The Missouri and upper Mississippi fish may be more closely related to northern smallies, and the others more closely related to Tennessee River smallies. Maybe.

But apparently the genetics of ALL smallies in the Ozarks are different from those in other areas, because it appears the top end size of Ozark smallies is smaller than the top end size of Tennessee River smallies. Witness the fact that Missouri and Arkansas state records don't compare to the state records of states like Tennessee, Kentucky, etc. This could very well be because the genetics of ALL Ozark smallmouth are different from those others. The Neosho/Grand river system smallies are just the MOST different. Maybe this is why they seem to have the smallest top end size. Or maybe it's something else.

Now...while there hasn't been any widespread stocking of smallmouth in the Ozarks for many years, there WAS a lot of indiscriminate stocking all over the Ozarks back in the early 1900s, mainly in the mistaken belief that it would augment the numbers of smallies in the various streams. That's where the genetics got somewhat messed up, probably.

So...I think it's likely that SWMO smallies are genetically unique, but so are smallies in other river systems in the Ozarks, both from those in other regions and amongst themselves. The question is, is the difference in genetics enough to merit subspecies status, and special protection?

I'm all for protection for smallmouth in the Grand/Neosho system while the studies are done to determine once and for all their genetic status. But eventually those studies WILL have to be done.

[drew03cmc]

Thanks Al. I appreciate the clarification.

[ozark trout fisher]

I haven't been on in a couple weeks, so I just read Matt Weirs original post.I'm very happy about the new line of smallmouth management that it looks like we may have. This proposal sounds like it's even better than I thought could be expected.

And that's all I have to say on the matter.

[Chief Grey Bear]

Thank you Chief for showing me around as I would have never found those roads on my own. Got some real back country roads down that way.

It was my pleasure Gary. I had a great time and really enjoyed the delitful converstation. I really enjoyed the Chicago stories. And all that food talk....oh baby!!!!!! I was really amazed at just how much in common we have.

Like I said, we'll let the weather warm a little and we will get out on the water and take a float. That is the best way to get a good look at what is here.

Chief, you said something about research that you were doing, care to enlighten us?

It is trout related.

Now...while there hasn't been any widespread stocking of smallmouth in the Ozarks for many years, there WAS a lot of indiscriminate stocking all over the Ozarks back in the early 1900s, mainly in the mistaken belief that it would augment the numbers of smallies in the various streams. That's where the genetics got somewhat messed up, probably.

I have spoke with many old time rivermen, including my father who has spent his entire life on these waters, about these stockings. From their recollections it seems that the preferred fish to stock were largmouth and trout. Largemouth even less though. In speaking with these men on bass stocking, the reaccuring answer seemed to be that they couldn't remember much bass stocking. They spoke of some bass being taken from the creek and put into ponds, but not so much from creek to creek. But they could remember lots of trout stocking.

I questioned about smallmouth and it was stated many times over that while smallmouth were not considered a trash bass, it was not as high on the list as largmouth. Largemouth was the preferred bass at that time. And as I sit here and recollect back over my years on the river with these men, and even today, they don't target smallmouth. They still prefer LM bass.

So...I think it's likely that SWMO smallies are genetically unique, but so are smallies in other river systems in the Ozarks, both from those in other regions and amongst themselves. The question is, is the difference in genetics enough to merit subspecies status, and special protection?

Well maybe not in Missouri, but Oklahoma seems to think so. Hence the battle about stocking Smallmouth in Grand Lake.

[drew03cmc]

Well maybe not in Missouri, but Oklahoma seems to think so. Hence the battle about stocking Smallmouth in Grand Lake.

Losing battle brother. I enjoy reading it, but that is a losing battle with this company.

[Chief Grey Bear]

Oh I know. That was apparent months ago when the beatings started on "regular fisherman" and expanded to poachers, giggers and the MDC.

[drew03cmc]

With close-minded individuals, you seldom see someone able to hold a decent conversation without attacking others and making themselves look like God.

[ness]

[KCRIVERRAT]

That is no way to eat a pepperoni pizza while using the computer Ness!

And on a sidebar sort of thing... kinda looks like a get together is questionable.

My dad was a cop for 27 years... seems you're as good as him! KUDO'S