The Bass Thing

[Stockton Lake Guide Service]

Let's see if I can explain my position a little better.

I would rather catch the type and size of fish that Mother Nature intended I catch in a given area than an artificially supplanted one, UNLESS there is an ecological niche that is not being filled, i.e. trout parks, Taney, farm ponds, etc. All those places need human assistance to become highly-productive fishing waters. The reason we have Northern Strain LM, smallmouth and Kentuckies instead of FL strain LM is because those are the species the planet decided should inhabit the area in which we choose to live. If you found some super-warm reservoir somewhere in MO that wasn't able to support high populations of quality Northern Strain LM, and some other species hadn't adapted to and inhabited that reservoir, I'd say go for it...but those reservoirs don't exist. That's why I mentioned power-plant lakes in another thread...how about a FL strain LM program in a place like that instead? Why tinker with already-established and highly productive MO reservoirs?

As long as our fisheries are producing good numbers of mature fish (within size ranges according to the limitations of the species), I'm happy. I prefer to keep things natural. If I want to chase FL strain monsters, I'll drive down to Fork. Catching a 5 pound LM here in MO is just as satisfying to me as catching a 10 pound FL strain beast in a southern state. I don't need my rod to be bent in half to thoroughly enjoy catching a fish. Again, everyone likes bigger fish, but I'm not willing to sacrifice tens of thousands of years of natural selection to accomplish it. I'm all for improved creel regulations based on scientific data, as well as aggressive social regulations and laws to protect and improve the habitat of our native fishes. Let's start with that, and if there is still room for improvement, we can talk about radical genetic changes then.

...IMHO

Thats what I said, but yours sounded better.

[Buzz]

Twenty Four pounds to win the Anglers in Action at Stockton on March 14th. Three bass weighed in over seven pounds. Last year the water was four foot high all spring and summer, leading to an excelent number of fry that survived . Stockton is perfect right now, it doesn't get any better than that.

Thanks csfishinfool, you help make my point. Which would be, we have a great system here in Missouri. The fish are coming back like they always do. They may not be 15 pounders like Texas, Florida, and California, but it is what it is. Who wouldn't be trilled to catch a 7 pounder, especially while fishing a tournament.

Walcrabass,

I have read the literature that has been posted, and it is encouraging. Except for the fact that we are above the I-40 corridor ( as listed in the Oklahoma sites) and Florida's don't perform well and the hybrids don't seem to do much better than the Northern strain above that line.

As far as the Spots go, I'm sort of on the fence. I have yet to see or hear any honest evidence that they are a serious issue in S.W.Missouri lakes and resovoirs. I find it hard to believe there is not one single guide that is not reading this thread. I think thier opinions would be useful, even if they differ from my own. I know and understand the biology of the fish and still have not heard from anyone who says that they are a significant problem. Now don't get me wrong, if there was a problem and the MDC decided to address and or manage it, I would go along with it. Maybe even a slot limit that allowed the bigger spots to grow bigger.

I applaud your efforts on this subject. I really do. Good luck with your endeavors. I guess what I'm trying to say is, " It's not always about the size of the fish, but the quality."

This has been a great debate, and you seem to be a great guy, DO NOT think that there is any malice intended. I, like many other guys, only want the best for our fishery.

Buzz out.

[Buzz]

maybe I am reading something wrong here, but you say that the hybrid females are more successful at reproducing, they can't reproduce because, the two different species have two different numbers of chromosomes.

Species can reproduce within their own species, because each individual within the species has the same number of chromosomes.

The hybrids can't reproduce because the sex cells would never be fertilized, as their chromosomes would be wrong. The hybrids would never occur in nature, and they were created by man, I don't know how they accomplished this, but, anyway, thats why the hybrids can't reproduce.

I hope this makes sense and I didn't misread your post, but if the fish is a hybrid, then from what I have learned and read, they won't reproduce.

Thats what I said, but yours sounded better.

You beat me to the punch S.T.G.S. I thank you for your input.

[Chief Grey Bear]

The MDC has different properties with strip pits on them. Like Shawnee Trail at Minden Mines and Harmony Mission near Rich Hill and I think there may another or two. I think that would be a great place to do your experiment with the F-strain bass.

Pits don't flood like a pond would. That is due to that they were not designed to catch surface run off water for storage. And that is the one of the best reasons for using a pit. There is zero chance for escape. Plus pits are known for growing large bass.

You might try going that route. You may get better results.

[fozzie.]

The MDC has different properties with strip pits on them. Like Shawnee Trail at Minden Mines and Harmony Mission near Rich Hill and I think there may another or two. I think that would be a great place to do your experiment with the F-strain bass.

Pits don't flood like a pond would. That is due to that they were not designed to catch surface run off water for storage. And that is the one of the best reasons for using a pit. There is zero chance for escape. Plus pits are known for growing large bass.

You might try going that route. You may get better results.

Do you think conditions in strip pits simulate our large reservoirs close enough that the data provided from such a study would be applicable to large-reservoir situations? It's my understanding that strip pits have pretty different water quality and chemistry, and thermal regimes, when compared to other reservoirs. Not saying it's not worth pursuing, I'm just sort of thinking out loud...

[CaptainJoe]

Been reading your discussions and wanted to jump in and just share some thoughts with you.

Regarding the FL Bass, be careful what you wish for. I spent almost 28 years in CA and fished all of the major big fish lakes: Casitas, Castaic, Cachuma, Naci, Dixon, etc. The reports that have been posted here regarding that FL bass are harder to catch are true. All the stories and photos you see of the big ones, there are 1,000's of other non-photos of ZERO fish. It is very difficult to catch these fish. They spook so easy. In the Summer, it is not uncommon for many fisherman to catch shad and buy crayfish and dropshot them just to better their chances to get a bite. For most fisherman out there, you catch them during the spawn and the rest of the year is very difficult. I was blanked so many times in CA, but rarely get blanked here. Don't take a chance and upset the great fisheries that you already have. If you want some lunkers, go on a road trip and hit Falcon, Fork, Amistad, etc..

You will also cause more fishing pressure to your lake. If FL or hybrids are introduced and you start to grow above average fish, more fisherman will come to our lakes. In CA on Lake Castaic, 250 boats a day fish that small 29 miles of shoreline lake. Yes, 29 miles of shoreline. When boat 251 comes to the gate to pay their $24/day entrance fee, they have to wait for one of the other 250 boats already on the water to come in. When on the water, you must traverse the lake counterclockwise and speed is limited to 35 mph. Now, you can guess why I am here. All of those lakes out there have tremendous fishing pressure. Invite FL or FL hybrids and you will be inviting hybrid fisherman from unknown parts of MO and elsewhere.

I also believe that their are no problems with the spots in our lakes. I believe that they do not directly compete with the LM or SM. The largemouth wait for the bait to come to them and the spots go after them. The SM are usually in very different areas. I believe that they all coexist quite nicely. When it may be difficult to catch one species, you can count of some of the other two to jump on your line.

[Chief Grey Bear]

Do you think conditions in strip pits simulate our large reservoirs close enough that the data provided from such a study would be applicable to large-reservoir situations? It's my understanding that strip pits have pretty different water quality and chemistry, and thermal regimes, when compared to other reservoirs. Not saying it's not worth pursuing, I'm just sort of thinking out loud...

No I don't. Stip pits are a beast all unto themselves. And you are right in your thinking. But pits have proven themselves time and time again to produce big bass. And there are few different reasons for that. And without getting in-depth into the alkaline, Ph, and other concerns you brought up, which are valid points, we already know which pits are able to host quality fisheries.

As I have stated before my main concern is contaminating the gene pool of our native species in our native waterways. But I wouldn't have a problem with putting them in the pits. By putting F-strain bass in pits, they wouldn't be able to get into other waterways. Unless of course someone takes some to other spot for stocking. So in my way of thinking it would be a win-win situation for all.

I love pit fishing. I don't do it nearly enough these days like I used too. It would be a blast to catch some of those if they do indeed can grow large in our climate. And if we are going to experiment with a non-native, introduced species, lets do it where it won't have the possibilty to spead and breed with out native species.

[fozzie.]

No I don't. Stip pits are a beast all unto themselves. And you are right in your thinking. But pits have proven themselves time and time again to produce big bass. And there are few different reasons for that. And without getting in-depth into the alkiline, Ph, and other concerns you brought up, which are valid points, we already know which pits are able to host quality fisheries.

As I have stated before my main concern is contaminating the gene pool of our native species in our native waterways. But I wouldn't have a problem with putting them in the pits. By putting F-strain bass in pits, they wouldn't be able to get into other waterways. Unless of course someone takes some to other spot for stocking. So in my way of thinking it would be a win-win situation for all.

I love pit fishing. I don't do it nearly enough these days like I used too. It would be a blast to catch some of those if they do indeed can grow large in our climate. And if we are going to experiment with a non-native, introduced species, lets do it where it won't have the possibilty to spead and breed with out native species.

Pit fishing is a blast, I did it a lot in college, and they do grow some suprisingly big fish. Not just bass, but crappie and bluegill, too. It'd be really neat if MDC stocked a few pit lakes with florida strain or hybrids and didn't let the public know so there's no angler bias to one pit over another, then compared growth rates, catchability, population dynamics, etc. Sort of like a blind study, I'm thinking...

[Stockton Lake Guide Service]

I have had another idea creep into my small cerebral sphere. What if I proposed the introduction of a certain Crappie into our lakes that would grow faster, spawn more eggs, have a greater survival rate, get 50 per cent larger, and all we had to do was purchase them from another state and stock them? I would have to guess that virtually 100 per cent of the Crappie enthusiasts would say "Let's Get R Done". Why is it then that we might be getting "Hung Up" concerning the Bass?

I think the reason we are getting hung up on leaving it as is is due to the fact that we all get to fish the most awesome lake in the midwest. Everytime you fish this lake there is a chance of boating a 7+ lb fish. The numbers of fish are awesome and the size is even better. I'm happy with the way the lake is and if I decide that I want to catch some of these fl or tx bass then I will pull my boat down there for a weekend.

The spots are not a problem for me at all. I love catching a 3-4 lb spot on a chug bug, or pulling up to the pillars on a summer day and boating some spots off of every one of the bridge pillars. That doesn't happen in Florida. True you might find a 20 lb bass, but another 100 boats caught nothing. Chances are you won't catch the biggest fish and the fishing pressure is ridiculous.

[Walleyedmike]

WB,

I can certainly understand your interest in heightening the opportunity to catch large bass in the Ozark's Lakes in Missouri. I pretty much only fish Stockton, and I have to admit, I almost never target bass. I usually load and unload at the old State Park Marina, and I have seen some pretty big bass being weighed in at local tournaments. I would like to see you start a thread to see what the weight of the biggest bass was that anyone has personally caught in Ozark waters, and what the weight was of the biggest bass that they personally know was caught in Ozark waters. You might be surprised at how big they get in the Ozarks, anyway. I agree with many of the other guys, I wouldn't change a thing about Stockton...well maybe it would have been cool if the pike would have survived! Great discussion topic, though.

See ya on the water!

WM