Vandals On The Ozark National Scenic Rivers.

[Paola Cat]

Don't be re-introducing any river otters, black bears, elk, american bison, wild horses, wolves, or california condors in my backyard. I'm already over-run with re-introduced white tail deer, turkeys, and rattlesnakes . Feel free to send them to St. Peters.

[id10t]

Eric thinks that River Otters "deserve" to be there, what about the coyotes, skunks, and other varmints that lived in what is now St Peters MO but was farmland 50 years ago when St Peters was a town of 500 people? Should these critters be put back in peoples back yard? Every stream that goes through private land goes through someones back yard. Even worse peoples farm ponds are not only for recreation. Two of my brothers kids live in Texas county and both have small farm ponds where they grow catfish for food. Texas county was one of the places where farm ponds were hit hard by the River Otters. Just because its not hurting the fishing on youre waters doesn't make it right. How many of you who float woud like to see beavers on those streams and have the beaver dams protected because they were there first.

Those kids need to get themselves a couple of Otterhounds to patrol the pond.

Here otter otter

[eric1978]

Eric thinks that River Otters "deserve" to be there, what about the coyotes, skunks, and other varmints that lived in what is now St Peters MO but was farmland 50 years ago when St Peters was a town of 500 people? Should these critters be put back in peoples back yard?

I get your point...where do we draw the line, right? I'll admit that if we had man-eating otters crawling up out of the woods and snatching babies out of backyards in my neighborhood, I wouldn't defend their reintroduction and establishment so readily. But we don't, and it's my opinion that losing a percentage of fish on my favorite streams, while hard to swallow, is a sacrifice I'm willing to make if it's the way nature intended.

Oh, and I've seen both coyotes and skunks in St. Peters...they were flat as pancakes, but they're here.

Every stream that goes through private land goes through someones back yard. Even worse peoples farm ponds are not only for recreation. Two of my brothers kids live in Texas county and both have small farm ponds where they grow catfish for food. Texas county was one of the places where farm ponds were hit hard by the River Otters. Just because its not hurting the fishing on youre waters doesn't make it right.

What's not right is eradicating a species because we like to wear their skin on our heads.

As a property owner, you have the legal right to shoot or trap otters on your property any time of the year. You are not allowed to shoot or trap otters on streams that run through your property except during the trapping season. Your two brothers' kids can kill those otters anytime they please.

How many of you who float woud like to see beavers on those streams and have the beaver dams protected because they were there first.

I, for one, would love it. It would be an inconvenience to have to portage around them ocassionally, but the fact that there's not another soul on the river would make up for it ten-fold. Bring it on.

I'm already over-run with re-introduced white tail deer, turkeys, and rattlesnakes . Feel free to send them to St. Peters.

We have those, too (well, I've never seen a rattlesnake in St. Charles County, but I guarantee you there's ONE here). What would you trade me for it if I found him?

[ozark trout fisher]

Eric thinks that River Otters "deserve" to be there, what about the coyotes, skunks, and other varmints that lived in what is now St Peters MO but was farmland 50 years ago when St Peters was a town of 500 people? Should these critters be put back in peoples back yard? Every stream that goes through private land goes through someones back yard. Even worse peoples farm ponds are not only for recreation. Two of my brothers kids live in Texas county and both have small farm ponds where they grow catfish for food. Texas county was one of the places where farm ponds were hit hard by the River Otters. Just because its not hurting the fishing on youre waters doesn't make it right. How many of you who float woud like to see beavers on those streams and have the beaver dams protected because they were there first.

Otters are native to Missouri. If they cause problems, we'll just have to deal with it.

The same goes with beavers and the dams they build. I'd rather be inconvenienced than have a part of our natural environment missing.

[jdmidwest]

Otters were native to MO, then they were eliminated. Now MAN has reintroduced them, playing God and mucking with the balance of nature. Man introduced Trout into many nice smallmouth streams and have changed the balance of natural order there too. I noticed this week that they are trying to reintroduce Elk again. Last time they suggested it, it was shot down by landowners that do not want to deal with the destruction of fences and possible introduction of disease like CWD into the deer herd.

I say, they were gone, why bother to reintroduce them? Why waste my taxpayer dollars on a troublesome animal like the otter?

Many species have gone the way of the Dodo in MO. Saber tooth tigers, Mammoths, Elk, Bison, and the various species of dinosaurs. Do we bring them all back. What about the Native American Indian that thrived here, do we give up our land and let them have it too?

[eric1978]

Otters were native to MO, then they were eliminated. Now MAN has reintroduced them, playing God and mucking with the balance of nature.

The balance of nature was mucked with when we harvested them to extinction in Missouri, not when we reintroduced them. You have it backwards.

[Trav]

A balance would be to make sure there are natural predators to control the otters.....

[Al Agnew]

Jd, just can't agree with you. IF, and that's a big "if", the habitat will support them, I'm all for bringing back critters that have disappeared since Europeans moved in and wiped them out. That includes otters, it does not include the big predators like wolves and grizzlies, because the habitat will not support them.

And I'll say this once again. Otters do NOT have a lot of efficient predators anywhere. The only otter predators we DON'T have here in MO already are wolves and cougars, and their numbers and range are limited enough that there are plenty of other places that don't have them either, that have otters, and the otters are in equilibrium with their food sources. We have bobcats and coyotes, which are the only other possible predators of otters other than eagles, which we also have. Saying we should bring in otter predators, either as a serious statement or as an argument against bringing in once-extirpated critters, just doesn't wash.

By the way, loved the picture of the otterhound. I was at a meeting of some MDC people not long after it first became apparent that otters were becoming a problem. They were actually considering opening up an otterhound hunting season, allowing virtually unlimited hunting of otters with dogs. Apparently they knew that in parts of Europe, otter hunting with hounds is an established sport.

[Trav]

Al...You always find a way to gain my admiration. Your wealth of knowledge never disappoints me.

For the record, I was in fact arguing (sarcastically) against the otters with my "predator" comment. We know wolves, cougars, and bears are not compatible to a high dense human population.

As far as the otter hounds,...

After hundreds of dollars of property damage I trained dogs to keep otters away from my dock on Taney. It worked. The damage to my boats and the disappearing foam came to a screeching halt. One bad thing to the concept though. My dogs killed them to the point they eliminated the population from the entire shoreline where my dock sits. I knew my property wasn't being "vandalized" anymore but I felt guilty for the approach I took.

Truth be known, some species of wildlife have lost their niche in the ecosystem and we can only blame the human race for this obvious reality. I am all about giving nature back what we have taken from it but until there can be a natural balance to population control; it just isn’t fair to the wildlife. Sadly, unless the wildlife has value to humans there is no motivation to control populations.

A perfect example is the whitetail deer. My Gramps used to tell me stories about how barren the Midwest was of deer in the 30's and 40's. Thanks to hunters and the desire to use them as a game animal they have rebounded to the best numbers since before the depression era. Deer have humans controlling populations though. Otters have no value and even trappers are looking at just a few dollars for their pelts. It is no secret trappers are a dying breed because the money just isn't there anymore. So where is the population control? Where do otters actually fit in with the current status of the ecosystem?

My issue is not with the otters themselves. It is the fact they rape the waters to survive. The fish are of more value to humans than otters are and this debate will always be a hot topic as long as humans are there to defend the fish and complain about the destruction of personal property.

Another example is the beaver. I think the beaver is the forgotten ecosystem builder. Yet, since they back up water and flood property they are thought of as hazards instead of natural habitat architects.

Some species of animals are just abrasive to human development. The only people who give a crap about the wildlife are those who don't have to live with them, a very sad but honest fact. So they will never have the people who should care about them on their side. I am talking about land owners.

Al is right. Wolves and bears would not make it. Just look at the debate with the cattle farmers near Yellowstone with the wolves being reintroduced there. Yet, without those types of predators, species like otters should be introduced with caution. Some species should never be the Alpha predators.

Personally, we all know what is killing the streams in Missouri the most. It is not a bunch of ravenous otters. It is humans with the nasty septic systems, dredging for rock, dams which block migration and the creation of sedimentation and the poisoning of natural aquatic plant life with foreign species.

I can see both sides of the debate but to me the otters have found themselves on the wrong side of an infestation argument. Validating their necessity is going to be a hard sell.

If you are some city slicker who thinks the great outdoors is a big zoo, you have no clue.

[jdmidwest]

Man brought them back into the wild and now Man has to control them. But the problem is, there are not enough Men left that have the time and confirmation to trap and control the critters. Fur prices are the smallest part of the equation, breaking even would be nice. Hunting is falling off, trapping is at an all time low. I have been signed up for a cable restraint class for over 6 months now and there are not enough interested to hold a class. Season is fast approaching. The Alpha Predator is anxious to go out and control the varmits that ravage the crops and animals that I like to protect.