My Trout Management Wish List

[ness]

I think the White Ribbon areas are fine. They do serve a purpose -- providing a trout opportunity for those that want to catch and keep with any kind of tackle. I think they do help redirect people away from Blue and Red Ribbon sections to a degree, and I'm all for that. They also give the giggers a place to go without interfering with self-sustaining populations of trout. I'd be curious if they generate enough license sales to be pay the costs, but even if they didn't it wouldn't mean it's a bad idea.

That said, I wouldn't mind seeing Capps split up into White/Red. Don't know much about Hickory.

[ollie]

I was always under the impression that MDC was stocking those White Ribbon streams for just that: put and take. I know they are aware of what is going on because me and several people have been in contact with local agents about the stocking. The only thing I would like to see different on Capps would be a 1 only brown for larger than 18". Even if the streams got re-classified would it make a difference? You are still going to get those people that will take over their limit or just pound it everyday until they take care of all the fish. Does giving the stream a different label mean it will truely get protection?

[troutfiend1985]

Even if the streams got re-classified would it make a difference? You are still going to get those people that will take over their limit or just pound it everyday until they take care of all the fish. Does giving the stream a different label mean it will truely get protection?

I can't say for certain, and no one can say without speculating to some degree. Yes, you are probably not going to discourage the poachers because no law does, plain and simple. I'm not sure if arresting individuals really discourages poachers, they seem to be habitual.

However, Ollie I do know that nothing will change unless MDC tries something new. Capps has some potential, but if it is managed in the same way that it currently is nothing will change and MDC will continue to find 9 rainbows when conducting their surveys. It just doesn't make sense, why stock rainbows to just allow people to walk off with them? Isn’t the real point of public fishing to allow the most enjoyment for the most people?

Would changing the streams regulations change streams like Capps? I honestly don't know. The argument that nothing would make Capps better seems to rely on the idea that either all anglers do not abide by laws, or that there are a few anglers that poach so much that they can wipe out a whole stream. In reality, it probably is a combination of too high of a limit, people keeping their daily limit and a few poachers who just don't care.

I do think that changing the regulations would have some effect on white ribbon streams such as Capps and Hickory. A C&R zone by itself would change things, it would make it easier to spot a poacher, and to report a poacher. If I just arrive at Capps and notice a guy keeping a trout, I wouldn't be able to tell if that is his first trout or his 12th of the day. And to really be able to tell, I would have to watch him for a while in order to know. However, adding a C&R zone on a portion of a white ribbon stream and I would know immediately if he is breaking the law, if I see him put the fish on a stringer he is in violation.

Let me turn the question a little bit, what else would give these streams more protection? I know, increase enforcement agents, but then we are talking about money, tax dollars etc. This experiment would be cheap, and if it fails, what do you lose besides 9 measly trout?

[Chief Grey Bear]

Not every trout stocked is tagged. The theory that only 9 trout were found is completly false. Only 9 tagged trout were found. The question is how many were tagged? How long after the release of the tagged trout was the next survey? How many may have been harvested by natural predation? How many may have succumb to stress?

There are many questions to be answered before the finger gets cast at the very people that the park is managed for. I have caught there year round and the creek only gets 5 stockings per year. If I remember correctly, it only gets about 3,000 trout per year or about 600 per stocking.

Capp's is what it is. It is not being mismanaged, it is just not being managed the way you would like it to be. If you want Blue Ribbon type fishing, than I would suggest you go to a Blue Ribbon stream. I wouldn't be totally opposed to a split on the creek. But I wouldn't be excited for it either. But I don't think you will find the fishing any easier. Blue or Red Ribbon will mean very little to no stockings in that area. You will just have to hope some will come down from the Mill.

[ollie]

That is a very good point Chief. I know for a fact that there had to be more than just 9 counted in the survey. I was down there yesterday and caught 2 and saw many more rise to take something off the top. Not all trout can be counted on a shock survey. I personally don't mind if it gets a different classification other than white ribbon. Blue ribbon means no stocking and red means some right? If that is correct then Chief would be right in his assumption that there wouldn't be hardly any fish in there. I wouldn't be opposed to a C&R area only either. Like I said I know the MDC expects all those trout to be gone and that is what it is. It's an opportunity for those to take trout however they want. I am more concerned about the browns on Capps than anything else.

[troutfiend1985]

Not every trout stocked is tagged. The theory that only 9 trout were found is completly false. Only 9 tagged trout were found. The question is how many were tagged? How long after the release of the tagged trout was the next survey? How many may have been harvested by natural predation? How many may have succumb to stress?

There are many questions to be answered before the finger gets cast at the very people that the park is managed for. I have caught there year round and the creek only gets 5 stockings per year. If I remember correctly, it only gets about 3,000 trout per year or about 600 per stocking.

Capp's is what it is. It is not being mismanaged, it is just not being managed the way you would like it to be. If you want Blue Ribbon type fishing, than I would suggest you go to a Blue Ribbon stream. I wouldn't be totally opposed to a split on the creek. But I wouldn't be excited for it either. But I don't think you will find the fishing any easier. Blue or Red Ribbon will mean very little to no stockings in that area. You will just have to hope some will come down from the Mill.

"A 2009 population survey confirmed previous tagging study information which indicated that rainbow trout are rapidly removed by anglers between stockings as only 9 rainbow trout were captured." http://extra.mdc.mo....ects/?m=14#a131

To me what this says is that the 2009 population study confirms previous tagging study information, not that they only found 9 tagged trout. I guess you could read it two ways, but please look at what they are saying on the site and make sure that I am not taking it out of context. This isn’t my little theory I hatched behind my laptop, this is the exact wording of the MDC regarding the fishing prospects of Capps Creek in 2009. And this report specifically refers to the population study confirming the previous tagging study information. These two terms were not interchangeably used throughout the web site.

I'm not sure if the comment about the finger pointing is addressed to me, but if it is the only finger I am really pointing is the one at the MDC. Yes, its not being managed the way I want it to be. However, that statement by the MDC seems to suggest that there were very few Rainbow trout in this stream. And I know that elctro shocking doesn't get all of the fish, but this is the way that MDC conducts population studies.

I don't want blue ribbon type fishing, what I would like to see is a different type of management. I want to hear the MDC state that things are great at Capps in a C&R zone regardless of when the stocking truck came. What’s wrong with the idea of improving an area that could be something more? Or are you oppose to change? Chief, if you read my previous posts I already point out that I have more success at Blue Ribbon areas than I do at Hickory or Capps. I love Capps because it is a very intimate and a neat stream, I don't go to Capps as often as I used to because it seems that there are less fish there than Blue Ribbon streams and that is frustrating to an individual who drives 3-4hrs to get to a stream.

I think you have misread my ideas. I’m not sitting here and claiming that I wish Capps would become Crane. All I am saying is that if MDC would make some changes these streams would be better for it. Who knows, if MDC did make these changes you might see more quality fish in these streams.

[ozark trout fisher]

"A 2009 population survey confirmed previous tagging study information which indicated that rainbow trout are rapidly removed by anglers between stockings as only 9 rainbow trout were captured." http://extra.mdc.mo....ects/?m=14#a131

To me what this says is that the 2009 population study confirms previous tagging study information, not that they only found 9 tagged trout.

That's how I understood that as well.

[Chief Grey Bear]

A 2009 population survey confirmed previous tagging study information which indicated that rainbow trout are rapidly removed by anglers between stockings as only 9 rainbow trout were captured. A few rainbow, however, likely survive as four of these fish were 15-17"; larger than the normal stocking size.

There is the entire quote. And in the very first sentence it states that 9 trout from the 2009 population survey where they surved previously stocked tagged trout, were captured. It can be any clearer than that. It also states, which both of you left out like a FOX News story, that at least 4 of them had a really good growth rates. But still, when were they stocked in comparison to when the survey took place? Was the whole creek shocked? From the Mill dam to the confluence with Shoal?

There are trout in there year round. And they get very smart, very quickly. I will talk to the biologist that covers Capp's and see what the shocking surveys says. It may be a few days though. How many browns have you caught out of Capp's? They are there and there are some monsters too. I haven't caught one(a monster brown) but earlier this year when I was at the biologists office we were talking about Capps and he told me of some of the fish in there and it would make you dribble like a baby!

But at any rate, if you believe there were only 9 trout in the whole creek, then by all means write your letter. And please point that out to them. I would be really interested in the response. But just know what White Ribbon management consist of and that is what it is managed for. But the next time you make a trip to Capps, let me know. I'd love to meet you there.

[Chief Grey Bear]

I forgot to add that I would venture to say that those tagged trout were most likely stocked in 2008. But at any rate, it is no secret that the majority of trout stocked don't last long.

[troutfiend1985]

- A 2009 population survey confirmed previous tagging study information

- which indicated that rainbow trout are rapidly removed by anglers between stockings

- as only 9 rainbow trout were captured.

- A few rainbow, however, likely survive as four of these fish were 15-17";

- larger than the normal stocking size.

I guess its all how you break it down and what modifies what. Here is how I read the statement.

I don't believe that there are only 9 trout in the whole creek, what I believe is that the study shows that only 9 rainbows were found during this survey. There may be more at any given time, but the wording to me reads in the way I listed above.

1. MDC is aware that rainbow trout are being taken out of the very quickly, and

2. that the survey in 2009 found very few rainbow trout in Capps Creek

I am planning to write MDC for a few reasons; one being to clear up what is going on with this survey, the other to see if they would be open to a C&R zone on Capps and Hickory.

Chief I would love to meet up with you at Capps, but it would have to be this winter. Honestly I never thought that I would have debate with you over this issue of conservation, but I have no hard feelings whatsoever and enjoy your insights . Anyways, one of these days we still have to test out the Missouri Property law of Navigable waters.

Let me just put this out there, I am not trying to accuse anyone of being unethical. I don't have a problem with people who legally keep trout. What I have a problem with is how MDC is managing the white ribbon areas, most specifically Capps and Hickory. I know that MDC manages the white ribbon areas for a reason but I don’t see why a little compromise would hurt anything.

I will write to them sometime in the next couple of weeks and this try to post on here what I get as a response.

Tight Lines