White Ribbon Conservation Issue

[ozark trout fisher]

OK, fair enough. I don't understand why they are not growing larger than 12" though. They have been there plenty long enough to grow into fairly large, decent size fish. And if they did get into the, say, 2 or even 3 pound range and you caught that size on a somewhat consistant basis, would you enjoy them a little more? I understand catching 12" and down is a pain. It can drive you nuts catching them all day!

Honestly, the small size of the spotted bass doesn't bother me. It's more the fact that I know they are making the smallmouth bass population in those stream stretches unhealthy. And you pointed out that there are far more stretches of stream in Missouri with smallmouth than spots, and you'd be right. But when it's your home water that's being taken over mile by mile by a non-native species, it tends to get you a little concerned.

[laker67]

Honestly, the small size of the spotted bass doesn't bother me. It's more the fact that I know they are making the smallmouth bass population in those stream stretches unhealthy. And you pointed out that there are far more stretches of stream in Missouri with smallmouth than spots, and you'd be right. But when it's your home water that's being taken over mile by mile by a non-native species, it tends to get you a little concerned.

What's all this got to do with changing the regs in the white zones? Time to move on guys.

[Outside Bend]

And I used those skills. You should try it next time. I think you will find that smallmouth miles far exceed spot miles in this state.

Meanwhile, the discussion wasn't about whether smallmouth miles exceed spot miles in the state, but whether non-native spots or non-native trout have had a greater impact on smallmouth's range...

Your above quote implied that spring waters in Missouri are 45*. And that is false. We are not talking spring branchs and where trout were once stocked. The vast majority of stocking by the MDC today are in waters that were good smallmouth waters. You show the proof it wasn't.

My quote above implied that, just as in people, smallmouth have a preferred temperature range. Temperature plays a major role in the physiological processes of coldwater organisms, such as smallmouth. When temperatures fall out of their optimum range, smallmouth exhibit poorer growth, lower fecundity, poorer recruitment, and behavioral changes. On the flip side, smallmouth perform best in water temperatures around and above 70*, which are the upper threshold for trout. If there's competition, it's at the margins, in habitat which would be marginal for smallmouth bass whether or not trout were there.

I'm not going to waste my time doing your research Chief- you're fully capable of doing that. The correlation between temperature and growth in fishes has been well established, as has the concept of thermal optima. The biology and life history of smallmouth speaks for itself- they're not adapted to cold water. A species won't do well in a habitat for which it isn't well adapted. You're arguing against biology here, and you either have the information to back up that argument, or you don't. This isn't FOX news, repeating unsubstantiated claims doesn't make them true. Until you can demonstrate that smallmouth do well in poor smallmouth habitat, I don't see a reason to continue beating this dead horse.

Where did you pull those numbers from?

MDC's Watershed Inventory and Assessment.

[ozark trout fisher]

I agree that this thread has entirely jumped the shark-but I have a feeling we're just getting started. We could challenge the previous record for most pages in a thread....

What's next? Gigging, smallmouth management, politics ?

[drew03cmc]

As far as Trout wondering I was surprised to see Trout in Jakes Creek which is off the Niangua.

oneshot

I would keep that one quiet. It is those types of finds that people lose limbs for disclosing.

[Chief Grey Bear]

Meanwhile, the discussion wasn't about whether smallmouth miles exceed spot miles in the state, but whether non-native spots or non-native trout have had a greater impact on smallmouth's range...

My quote above implied that, just as in people, smallmouth have a preferred temperature range. Temperature plays a major role in the physiological processes of coldwater organisms, such as smallmouth. When temperatures fall out of their optimum range, smallmouth exhibit poorer growth, lower fecundity, poorer recruitment, and behavioral changes. On the flip side, smallmouth perform best in water temperatures around and above 70*, which are the upper threshold for trout. If there's competition, it's at the margins, in habitat which would be marginal for smallmouth bass whether or not trout were there.

I'm not going to waste my time doing your research Chief- you're fully capable of doing that. The correlation between temperature and growth in fishes has been well established, as has the concept of thermal optima. The biology and life history of smallmouth speaks for itself- they're not adapted to cold water. A species won't do well in a habitat for which it isn't well adapted. You're arguing against biology here, and you either have the information to back up that argument, or you don't. This isn't FOX news, repeating unsubstantiated claims doesn't make them true. Until you can demonstrate that smallmouth do well in poor smallmouth habitat, I don't see a reason to continue beating this dead horse.

MDC's Watershed Inventory and Assessment.

I have never seen anyone change horses in the middle of the stream more than you. You always change the basis of the discussion to suit your comments.

And how many times have you asked me to provide evidence? And when the shoe is one the other foot you say do your own research. That is the comment of a beaten man! BOO YAA!

I tried to stop this horse beating a couple of post ago, but you have yet to put down you paddle.

[ozark trout fisher]

I would keep that one quiet. It is those types of finds that people lose limbs for disclosing.

I'm with you there. Post all you want about the officially managed trout streams, but keep the rest quiet to anyone but your closest friends.They are too fragile and too special to be spoken of on a public forum except in the most vague terms.

[Buzz]

What's all this got to do with changing the regs in the white zones? Time to move on guys.

+1

Meanwhile, the discussion wasn't about whether smallmouth miles exceed spot miles in the state, but whether non-native spots or non-native trout have had a greater impact on smallmouth's range...

NOOOOOOOOOO................. It's about a possible improvement to TWO White Ribbon streams in S.W Missouri.

This is always how these things go. It starts in one place and always ends up 500 miles off course.

[ColdWaterFshr]

I got the score at

Chief - 7, plus or minus a couple, mostly minus because his evidence is weak and he seems a bit inflexible.

Outside Bend - 14, but could knock off a few if he becomes too verbose.

Ozark Trout Fisher - 3 ( could be 9 if he had changed his avatar)

Al Agnew - a spotless 100, the man has records and spreadsheets people, i'm not crappin you.

DrewMc - 3 (could be 5 but he is holding a goggleye)

Anyone else keeping score?

[Wheatenheimer]

Did I ever mention to you fella's that I once met George Carlin?

Ooooppps........wrong forum.........my bad!