White Ribbon Conservation Issue

[Al Agnew]

Well, that ain't exactly true either. Hickory used to have a good population of brownies. Very few are left in the stock zone. That being the stretch of water where trout are stocked. But I can take you similar waters in the area that you can catch brownies until your arms fall off. I have fished Shoal within a mile of where it comes out of the ground and caught numerous brownies and even a lot of largemouth.

So Andy may not be able to prove it but, anytime you would like to stop by down here, I would more than happy too.

Chief, I stand corrected...that doesn't seem to be the case on the small streams I know on this side of the state, but you know your streams and I don't. I will, however, stick by my point that the chances are that the cold water stream sections will never be real quality smallmouth water, trout or not.

They can be good pickerel water, though!

[drew03cmc]

Chief, I stand corrected...that doesn't seem to be the case on the small streams I know on this side of the state, but you know your streams and I don't. I will, however, stick by my point that the chances are that the cold water stream sections will never be real quality smallmouth water, trout or not.

They can be good pickerel water, though!

I can also say that on upper Shoal Creek, I, personally, caught more largemouth than smallmouth bass. The water was pretty darn chilly that day too.

Al, that pickerel water sounds fun!

[Outside Bend]

Big gamble indeed, but is it a gamble worth making? Also, what methods could be used other than euthanizing every spotted bass in the river with coordinated shocking trips?

No, because in either scenario smallmouth are displaced from large portions of their native habitat. Reducing spotted bass in places where they're non native doesn't require MDC investing huge sums into round-the-clock electrofishing crews or chemical piscicides- humans have proven pretty effective at hunting and fishing some species to, or close, to, extinction.

A self-sustaining program is a fallacy. It might pay for itself, but with the fishing license sales down for the last decade, how are they able to financially produce the same amount of trout and still profit? The simple answer is that they have to be dipping into other MDC funds, or so it would appear. I don't balance the books there so I wouldn't know.

[Chief Grey Bear]

They can be good pickerel water, though!

I have yet to catch one of those toothy critters. I always tell myself I am going too but, then end up focusing on the trout!

[drew03cmc]

No, because in either scenario smallmouth are displaced from large portions of their native habitat. Reducing spotted bass in places where they're non native doesn't require MDC investing huge sums into round-the-clock electrofishing crews or chemical piscicides- humans have proven pretty effective at hunting and fishing some species to, or close, to, extinction.

ou have every right to propose that MDC quit stocking trout, but those guys are paid to manage the state's fisheries based on science, not on guesswork and baseless assumptions. It doesn't appear you have the requisite evidence to show trout impact smallies in any appreciable way, and until you can provide that evidence, or persuade MDC to give it some study, I wouldn't bother wasting their time.

Your viewpoint appears to be that MDC wants to conserve smallmouth, but rather, has to spend, spend, spend on trout because that is a large portion of their budget and they want to provide quality trout fisheries (in an area where no trout fisheries existed 130 years ago, but was rife with quality smallmouth fisheries).

You mention that MDC has eliminated some of the Urban fisheries. Every year I read about some new lake in Jackson, Columbia or somewhere else that is a state managed urban trout lake. That seems to contradict your last statement. When you can catch smallmouth all year from within a mile of these springs that create this cold water, and smallmouth abound in the streams the springs dump into, my assumption is that smallmouth can tolerate the cold water, but there is too much competition for holding water and what not in the spring branch. You want science, what is the smallmouth's preferred temperature range? Their ideal range is from 60-70, but you can catch them in water from the lower 40s, clear up to just over 80. They are a very tolerant species and can adapt to those temperatures. In these waterways, these fish would have adapted to the constant 58-62 degree water coming from the springs and could very well survive in the current trout water.

[stlfisher]

I don't know, but I find it hard to believe that a trout would out compete a smallmouth for anything.

[jdmidwest]

If trout don't compete with smallmouth in the 11 pt, why do most fishing reports reveal the best methods are on crayfish patterns, stoneflies, and streamers, weighted and fished deep. Why are my best producing lures imitating crayfish and minnows for both species? 11 pt trout are not dainty little bug suckers, they like meat, minnows, crayfish, and larger insects, just like smallies. You don't see any reports about a fine Trico hatch in any of the reports. And based on my personal experience from fishing the Greer to Turner section both before when the trout were stocked monthly to recently when the trout were left to fend for themselves without stocking, smallies have returned and we catch more of them. You artificially introduce an extra 100 hungry trout into a pool of water along with all of its other inhabitants, there is increased competition for the food source that is available in the pool. Do you think the trout just sit there and wait in a pecking order?

And most stream temps below the spring branches after the cooler water of 55-58 degree spring water mixes with the warmer waters of the main river soon becomes ideal smallmouth habitat. I have caught nice smallmouth bass in waters below Greer Spring, Boze Mill, Alley Spring, Welch Spring, Cave Spring, Pulltite Spring, Round Spring, Mammoth Spring, and others. I have caught nice largemouth also along with pickerel, goggle eye, and walleye. The theory that a spring branch "sterilizes" a stream and makes it inhabitable to all things but trout does not hold water based on my experience. The cool waters of a spring are what enhances our smallmouth streams.

[Outside Bend]

Your viewpoint appears to be that MDC wants to conserve smallmouth, but rather, has to spend, spend, spend on trout because that is a large portion of their budget and they want to provide quality trout fisheries (in an area where no trout fisheries existed 130 years ago, but was rife with quality smallmouth fisheries).

My viewpoint is that MDC can manage a few coldwater stream segments for trout while still conserving smallmouth. My viewpoint is that MDC's trout budget is irrelevant- trout anglers pay for trout angling, and no money is taken from other programs to produce trout for the people who want to catch them. My viewpoint, still, is you can't arbitrarily determine smallies must have been present in coldwater streams before trout were stocked. We don't know what habitats those fish used with any certainty, but knowing the biology of smallmouth bass- it's a safe bet the habitat in those coldwater reaches would still suck for smallies, even if trout weren't present.

You mention that MDC has eliminated some of the Urban fisheries. Every year I read about some new lake in Jackson, Columbia or somewhere else that is a state managed urban trout lake. That seems to contradict your last statement.

Columbia's no longer stocked, and many of the urban fisheries are collaborative efforts funded in part through municipal governments, TU chapters, and the like. With that, coupled with reduced creel limits and stocking densities..I'm not sure how that contradicts what I wrote.

When you can catch smallmouth all year from within a mile of these springs that create this cold water, and smallmouth abound in the streams the springs dump into, my assumption is that smallmouth can tolerate the cold water, but there is too much competition for holding water and what not in the spring branch. You want science, what is the smallmouth's preferred temperature range? Their ideal range is from 60-70, but you can catch them in water from the lower 40s, clear up to just over 80. They are a very tolerant species and can adapt to those temperatures. In these waterways, these fish would have adapted to the constant 58-62 degree water coming from the springs and could very well survive in the current trout water.

While smallies can be found in water temperatures outside their preference range, the fish have a harder time maintaining in those temperatures, and are subject to greater stress, slower growth, and poorer fecundity and survival. That's why you can determine a fishes' age- winter water temperatures (below the fishes' thermal optimum), cause slower growth rates, while warm-season stream temperatures (within the fishes' thermal optimum), allows for faster growth. Unlike your assumptions these trends aren't armchair guesswork, they've been corroborated through scientific research.

A coldwater stream reach is a different aquatic habitat than a coolwater stream reach, just as a tundra is a different terrestrial habitat. It seems intuitively obvious to me you'd find more smallmouth in their preferred habitat than in habitat outside their preference range, and the fact that you find far more smallmouth than trout in good smallmouth habitat, and far more trout than smallmouth in good trout habitat, seems to uphold the idea. In other words, the observed scenario reflects the expected scenario.

A species invasion only only works if the non-native is pushing the native from its preferred habitat- obviously this isn't the case in this situation, because you still find overwhelming numbers of smallmouth, not trout, in the best smallmouth habitat. Isn't it possible competition BETWEEN smallmouth pushes some of the fish into from quality habitat to poor habitat, instead of trout pushing them from poor habitat elsewhere?

[Mark]

I can vouch that the trout I have cleaned from the Eleven Point are feeding on crawdads

[Gavin]

They trout feed heavilly on craws on the 11pt that's for sure...And a unique little crayfish to boot...The coldwater crawfish is the predominant species and its not found anywhere else that I know of...I cleaned a fat 18" bow for dinner on my last trip and it had about 6-7 of them in its belly...wonder why it ate a glo-ball?

Still catch smallmouth on the 11pt, but the trout numbers have been insane at times since they resumed stocking it...We used to fish all weekend for 5-10 trout, some smallies, and some pickeral. Did the trout run the smallmouth out? Mabye...Maybe not. Email MDC & ask. I think John Ackerson is the biologist.....They shock it every year so I'm sure they have plenty of creel census data. Trout are certainly there in abundance now...not so in the past...Mabye the smallies are still there, but harder to catch due to all the trout. Seems to be plenty of food for both in that river.