White Ribbon Conservation Issue

[FishinCricket]

Chief and Eric: What's with all this "Brother" stuff? You two finally get together and go fishing or something? You're being awful civil all of the sudden... Next time you go, Take me and JD?

[Chief Grey Bear]

You got one on me. I mispoke. I ment to say zooplanton. I admit that I used the wrong term.

And to add to that they dine on rotifers and various types of water fleas. Older fry gradually roam further and further from the nest as they begin feeding in shallow water by searching and feeding on groups of tiny plankton critters and tiny bugs associated living on or near the bottom. Other first foods are newly hatched early instars of midge and mayfly larvae. So does that sound like Spotted bass food or trout food?

There is no factual evidence that man put spots in your smallmouth waters. There are many theories on how there got there but, no concrete evidence. There is factual evidence that trout were stocked by man in Missouri waters. We have already hashed all of this out between ourselves and neither of us are going to change the others mind. We just as well quit now don't you think?

[eric1978]

Chief and Eric: What's with all this "Brother" stuff? You two finally get together and go fishing or something? You're being awful civil all of the sudden... Next time you go, Take me and JD?

All of a sudden. Chief and I see eye to eye on more than we let on...we're men of mystery.

So does that sound like Spotted bass food or trout food?

Sounds like trout food, and plenty of it. The rivers are loaded with that stuff...lots and lots to go around. Crawdads on the other hand...

We have already hashed all of this out between ourselves and neither of us are going to change the others mind. We just as well quit now don't you think?

Sure, why not? I jumped into this one out of pure boredom anyway. Kill da wabbit.

[FishinCricket]

All of a sudden. Chief and I see eye to eye on more than we let on...we're men of mystery.

Sounds like trout food, and plenty of it. The rivers are loaded with that stuff...lots and lots to go around. Crawdads on the other hand...

Sure, why not? I jumped into this one out of pure boredom anyway. Kill da wabbit.

http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?desktop_uri=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DQqC_YdG7GtM&v=QqC_YdG7GtM&gl=US

Wascawy wabbits!!!

[Al Agnew]

We've covered the spotted bass thing ad nauseum, so I'll only say, Chief, that if you lived on our side of the state and saw more than TWO HUNDRED FIFTY MILES of ONE major river system go from 100% smallmouth (not including the largemouth, numbers of which have remained stable) to less than 50%, and in at least a third of those 300 miles less than 15%, smallmouth...AND those 250 miles had been some of the very best waters in the state for BIG smallmouth and are now filled with spotted bass of very mediocre size at best...and another 50 miles are likely to go the same way, and that has all happened in a period of 25 years...I suspect you MIGHT understand where we're coming from.

Now...contrast that with trout in the same river system. In that river system, trout are found in one small creek, Dry Creek, from the Westover trout resort near it's head, and in about 8 miles of the Meramec. There are a three other short sections of small, spring-fed creeks that had trout in the past from private stockings. They don't anymore, because the private stocking stopped. If Westover went defunct, the trout would disappear from Dry Creek in a few years. There hasn't been a whole lot of natural reproduction in the Meramec below Maramec Spring, so if MDC ran out of money and stopped stocking trout in the spring branch, eventually the trout would disappear in the river below, too.

The Meramec river system has a little over 500 miles of smallmouth habitat. HALF of it has been SERIOUSLY affected by spotted bass invasion, with another 10% in danger. It has maybe 15 miles of trout water that also still holds smallmouth, none of which was GOOD smallmouth habitat before the trout were put there, and it has maybe another 10 miles that COULD support trout. The rest of that 500+ miles could NEVER support trout.

You can argue the philosophical similarities between spotted bass invasion and trout stocking all you want, but the REALITY is what we're experiencing. And the reality is that trout have had an extremely insignificant effect on smallmouth populations in the northern Ozark streams, while spotted bass have been an unmitigated disaster. Period.

[FishinCricket]

You guys shoulda known you'd piss Al off...

[Outside Bend]

It can. There is not one waterway in the State of Missouri that has been taken over by spots.

And there's not one waterway in the State of Missouri that's been taken over by trout. What's your point? The fact remains that smallies have been replaced in more stream miles by non-native spotted bass than by non-native trout.

All predator fish, bass, trout, crappie,.... all eat minnows, crawdads and perch, the most common source of forage in creeks. They all compete equally. If spotted bass ate so much, how come they don't get as big as brownies?

They may all compete equally, which is why they partition into different habitats- otherwise none of those species would be doing particularly well.

How come spotted bass don't grow as big as smallmouth in their native range? It's biology- instead of spending energy on growth, they allocate it to egg production. They can produce twice as many eggs as smallmouth, and with more kids in the water, there's a better likelihood of survival.

I can't explain why the department would favor a non-native species over a native species. But that is just the mentality of those easterners.

Where do you get the idea they're favoring trout over smallmouth?

[drew03cmc]

We've covered the spotted bass thing ad nauseum, so I'll only say, Chief, that if you lived on our side of the state and saw more than TWO HUNDRED FIFTY MILES of ONE major river system go from 100% smallmouth (not including the largemouth, numbers of which have remained stable) to less than 50%, and in at least a third of those 300 miles less than 15%, smallmouth...AND those 250 miles had been some of the very best waters in the state for BIG smallmouth and are now filled with spotted bass of very mediocre size at best...and another 50 miles are likely to go the same way, and that has all happened in a period of 25 years...I suspect you MIGHT understand where we're coming from.

Now...contrast that with trout in the same river system. In that river system, trout are found in one small creek, Dry Creek, from the Westover trout resort near it's head, and in about 8 miles of the Meramec. There are a three other short sections of small, spring-fed creeks that had trout in the past from private stockings. They don't anymore, because the private stocking stopped. If Westover went defunct, the trout would disappear from Dry Creek in a few years. There hasn't been a whole lot of natural reproduction in the Meramec below Maramec Spring, so if MDC ran out of money and stopped stocking trout in the spring branch, eventually the trout would disappear in the river below, too.

The Meramec river system has a little over 500 miles of smallmouth habitat. HALF of it has been SERIOUSLY affected by spotted bass invasion, with another 10% in danger. It has maybe 15 miles of trout water that also still holds smallmouth, none of which was GOOD smallmouth habitat before the trout were put there, and it has maybe another 10 miles that COULD support trout. The rest of that 500+ miles could NEVER support trout.

You can argue the philosophical similarities between spotted bass invasion and trout stocking all you want, but the REALITY is what we're experiencing. And the reality is that trout have had an extremely insignificant effect on smallmouth populations in the northern Ozark streams, while spotted bass have been an unmitigated disaster. Period.

Al, you are still catching bass, correct? Fish on my side of the line west of Kansas City. Your odds are just as good of catching Asian Carp as they are of catching a bass. This is my view on this. The fish are there and not going anywhere.

You guys shoulda known you'd piss Al off...

And, what else is new? The eastern Ozarks is being "devastated" by a fish which found its own way into a drainage.

And there's not one waterway in the State of Missouri that's been taken over by trout. What's your point? The fact remains that smallies have been replaced in more stream miles by non-native spotted bass than by non-native trout.

Capps, Hickory, Little Piney as OTF stated, need I go on? All held quality populations of smallmouth at one time.

They may all compete equally, which is why they partition into different habitats- otherwise none of those species would be doing particularly well.

How come spotted bass don't grow as big as smallmouth in their native range? It's biology- instead of spending energy on growth, they allocate it to egg production. They can produce twice as many eggs as smallmouth, and with more kids in the water, there's a better likelihood of survival.

Where do you get the idea they're favoring trout over smallmouth?

Trout Program, Trout Stamp, Trout Parks, honestly?

[ozark trout fisher]

Drew, I'm not sure about Capps or Hickory, but the Little Piney still does support a quality bass population, and in the some of the same areas where there are trout too. I was just saying that bass can live in the same habitat as trout, not that trout are displacing the bass. Those are two entirely separate arguments.

In Little Piney, I think the only thing that has hurt the bass population over the years has been cattle trampling the banks and extensive gravel mining.

As for spotted bass, It's pretty clear to those of us who spend a lot of time in the Meramec basin that they nothing short of devastating to the smallmouth population. If you guys saw what was going on in say, the Bourbeuse River, I think you'd agree. We are watching a hundreds of miles of excellent native smallmouth water deteriorate before our eyes. Trout don't do anything even remotely like that to smallmouth.

[ColdWaterFshr]

Since this thread has passed its yawn threshold, lets talk about Avatars:

Ozark Trout Fisher, you need a new one. Nice size fish though it may be, it just could be the most silvery, pale, unhealthy looking trout park fish this side of Bennett Springs.

Outside Bend, the look on your face says you have a pocket queens but that 8th rum and coke you just finished has gravely impaired what little poker skills you had to begin with and the box on your head screams "take my money".

Fishin Cricket - what the? Nice bass-on-stump, but whats with the red velvet curtain shrine surrounding it? Do you draw those curtains back only on special occasions? And you need to fire your interior decorator with that choice of wall paint and curtains.

Drew03cmc - no self-respecting fisherman ever poses with a goggle-eye, which may explain the hoody and dark shades.