New Mdc E Permits. Yellow Ones Go Bye Bye!

[eric1978]

You know what I also look forward to? When the newly elected MO State Legislature enacts a state wide sales tax system replacing the income tax and I buy all my goods in Arkansas and Oklahoma and online and cut off my sales tax money to MDC. What do you think about that possiblity?

I think it's unlikely (and unlikely you would drive to Arkansas or Oklahoma to buy your gas and groceries). It also sounds like a pretty foolish plan to support another state's budget because you're angry that a MO fishing license is $1.50 more than an AR license. But do what you wish...you'd only be shooting yourself in the foot. You get far more bang for your buck through government services than you do transacting business with a private company. Can you imagine the cost of a fishing license if conservation was turned over to the private sector? Fuggedaboutit.

[troutfiend1985]

If you don't think that 1-18 inch fish per day is a nice way of saying catch and release than you are a much better fisherman than I. I bet the number of 18" fish taken legally out of blue ribbon streams per year could be counted on two hands or less (per stream). Next time you think you have an 18" fish put a tape on it, I bet you'll be surprised that it's not quite that big.

And that's the little things that start adding up, at least to me. Why not call it C&R? Why put in this option of keeping one? You can't tell me its for the trophy purpose with as many good model trophies or whatever it is they call it, where you send in photos and measurements etc. So why? And see that's the stuff I don't understand with the MDC because to me there isn't a good reason. And I'm not really looking for the MDC to be nice, in fact I wouldn't mind if they were jerks to those outside of the law, just protect our wildlife. But again I'll be honest, it's only my opinion and I may be off base.

Cricket, I don't know if size is definitive as to the quality of management, but I would think that it is at least factor. And Arkansas seems to have consistent size. Now whether that's from management, good rivers or a combination of things. . . The point is that Arkansas seems to have fairly progressive management and regulations, and I would think these at least have an effect on the fishing.

[smallmouthjoe]

And that's the little things that start adding up, at least to me. Why not call it C&R? Why put in this option of keeping one? You can't tell me its for the trophy purpose with as many good model trophies or whatever it is they call it, where you send in photos and measurements etc. So why? And see that's the stuff I don't understand with the MDC because to me there isn't a good reason. And I'm not really looking for the MDC to be nice, in fact I wouldn't mind if they were jerks to those outside of the law, just protect our wildlife. But again I'll be honest, it's only my opinion and I may be off base.

Cricket, I don't know if size is definitive as to the quality of management, but I would think that it is at least factor. And Arkansas seems to have consistent size. Now whether that's from management, good rivers or a combination of things. . . The point is that Arkansas seems to have fairly progressive management and regulations, and I would think these at least have an effect on the fishing.

The reason why the MDC isn't implementing a C&R policy on these trophy sections is because they are trying to appease two groups of fishers. They are trying to find a compromise between the full on C&R folks and the more traditional catch and consume crowd. This is what angler surveys are for, a survey of the percentage of people who are wanting to catch the fish of a lifetime compared to the guys who are looking to eat some trout. They consider what the anglers want and then manage accordingly also considering the resources, fish and the habitat.

[Tim Smith]

Well chief, if he is talking about trout then its hard to argue against it, think of how many world record browns have came from Arkansas(3), and compare that to MO(0). The Little Red, the White River below BSD are just better fisheries, how much of that has to do with management, I don't know.

As I understand it, management has very little to do with the White River/Norfork trophy browns. Those fisheries are beneath productive warm water reservoirs constantly enriching the reaches below the dams (which is where the world record was caught).

[troutfiend1985]

The reason why the MDC isn't implementing a C&R policy on these trophy sections is because they are trying to appease two groups of fishers. They are trying to find a compromise between the full on C&R folks and the more traditional catch and consume crowd. This is what angler surveys are for, a survey of the percentage of people who are wanting to catch the fish of a lifetime compared to the guys who are looking to eat some trout. They consider what the anglers want and then manage accordingly also considering the resources, fish and the habitat.

I think my last post was more about the Blue Ribbon Area's. I know that MDC is trying to appease two areas of anglers with Taney, and the stocking of fish can make up for those kept. But if you keep a 19' from a wild stream you are keeping a trout that is very important to next years population. I guess that's where I draw the line at. Look, the catch and consume crowd has a ton of places in Missouri: Trout Parks, Lower Taney, White Ribbon Areas. Those areas make up for the majority of trout streams in Missouri, and I'm sure that Smallmouth guys would like to see more strict regulations on certain streams.

I know that its a game of politics, but I guess that I'm just finding myself going independent on this one Now, with all that bashing on the MDC, I will say for the most part they do a good job, I just wish they would brush up a few edges.

[troutfiend1985]

As I understand it, management has very little to do with the White River/Norfork trophy browns. Those fisheries are beneath productive warm water reservoirs constantly enriching the reaches below the dams (which is where the world record was caught).

I would differ with that. MAnagement does have a lot to do with any productive fishery. If Arkansas mismanaged those streams then I doubt we would see records coming from those rivers.

[Outside Bend]

I would differ with that. MAnagement does have a lot to do with any productive fishery. If Arkansas mismanaged those streams then I doubt we would see records coming from those rivers.

But if those systems weren't as productive as they are, they wouldn't be producing as many high-caliber fish.

Ozark trout streams aren't nearly as productive as a tailwater system. You can place all the same regulations on Missouri wild trout streams as Arkansas has on its tailwaters, that doesn't mean it will translate into a fishery anywhere comparable to what Arkansas has.

What is the value in managing for an unrealistic goal?

[Tim Smith]

I would differ with that. MAnagement does have a lot to do with any productive fishery. If Arkansas mismanaged those streams then I doubt we would see records coming from those rivers.

It's going to take some parsing to decide what is meant here by "good management" and "mis-management".

I'm not knocking the Arkansas DNR and certainly I agree they succeeded in keeping the anglers off the fish long enough for them to grow. But the White/Norfork system is a complete aberration. It's just not fair to use a few freakish browns from a system with abnormally high growth to say that Missouri is mis-managed compared to Arkansas. The Missouri fishery is just different.

Also you have to consider the gigantic Federal hatchery on Dry Creek that has nothing to do with the State of Arkansas. They've been loading the White and Norfork for decades. Give someone enough Federal money and anyone can pump enough millions of fish into a river to look like a genius.

The people lined up shoulder to shoulder under the hatchery in Montauk State Park in Missouri look pretty happy most days too...

...if you like that kind of thing.

[troutfiend1985]

But if those systems weren't as productive as they are, they wouldn't be producing as many high-caliber fish.

Ozark trout streams aren't nearly as productive as a tailwater system. You can place all the same regulations on Missouri wild trout streams as Arkansas has on its tailwaters, that doesn't mean it will translate into a fishery anywhere comparable to what Arkansas has.

What is the value in managing for an unrealistic goal?

And you can flip that argument, you can't have a great fishery unless it is managed to be a great fishery(look at Yellowstone and the fishing before and after their regulation changes for an example, and no I don't want to Compare MO with Montana, or the Firehole to Taney) Look, no doubt that Arkansas has great water, better than Missouri. But, would a C&R zone improve the Current, probably. Would requiring barbless hooks on C&R sections, like the trout parks in the winter, reduce hook mortality, arguably. And why do you point to one small post I made without referring to the others I made in correlation?

And why does MDC feel the need to straddle the fence with blue ribbon streams? Or is this my unrealistic goal, that I would like to see MDC call a spade a spade and put C&R regulations on areas like Crane and Blue Springs, or even close down the area for a few weeks to protect spawning. That's what my grief is over. They should be C&R, and I never said I want blue ribbon streams managed like the White River, you're putting words in my mouth Outside. Did I ever say that I want Taney to become BSD White River? What I said was MDC can benefit from some of Arkansas' regulations, like C&R areas and what not. Regulations would have the chance to improve what we already have, and that's the only reason to want regulations. Outside of trout parks, I do not know of any place in Missouri that has a C&R section which is in force all year, do you? Why else would you have a C&R zone but to improve overall fishing?

Look, argue that snow isn't cold, but you cannot discount what Arkansas has done with its fisheries. And then we look at what we have in Missouri, and well. . . Outside of dumb luck(Crane) or NFOW and Taney, we have a fairly mediocre principle of management. White Ribbons, Roubidoux, Meramec. . . And what are these? Mismanaged areas, and yes I'm being critical, but I have posted before what I think needs to be done. Point to trout parks all you want Tim, but that's not really a "good management philosophy" stuffing a stream and call it good. And really, I don’t want to parse words or get into what the definition of “is” like a former president, but all I am saying is that Arkansas has more progressive regulations than MDC, just look at their regulations on the White River.

[Guest]

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