New Mdc E Permits. Yellow Ones Go Bye Bye!

[Wayne SW/MO]

How so? It's very easy to throw a statement out there like this, but how does MO's trout program serve a more diverse population? Well we could start by noting that trout fishing opportunities are spread across the state from east to west, or is it west to east, and if you live south of the Big Muddy you're less than 200 miles from fishing for trout, stocked or wild. You don't see many young children on the White, or the bucket brigade. The White is managed for dollars and it's that simple. The fact that it serves Arkansans well financially is not necessarily a tribute to their fisheries management. If Missouri had an artificial resource with world class potential fishery in Grundy county we wouldn't likely be having this discussion.

While Missouri has taken advantage of it's many springs, Arkansas has only exploited Mammoth, at least to my knowledge.

Does this mean better management though? Maybe you should define management, as you define it.

Have you fished other resources in the north and west and our you also using their management policies in your evaluation of the MDC. Who do you think the MDC should serve and how? Do you think tourist dollars, such as in Arkansas should play a big role?

While we're on the subject, why did you chang your handle?

[bigredbirdfan]

I agree.

Let me qualify my statement. I'm not trashing Taneycomo as I fish there plenty, but I was simply calling out the White being called a ditch that's all.

[ozark trout fisher]

As I said a few posts back, I was joking/stirring the pot when I called the White a ditch. It does appear to be somewhat like a ditch right below the dam, but I will admit it is as beautiful as any Ozark stream in some areas, especially down around Buffalo City.

I was not seriously trying to offend or hurt anyone's feelings.

[troutfiend1985]

While Missouri has taken advantage of it's many springs, Arkansas has only exploited Mammoth, at least to my knowledge.

Does this mean better management though? Maybe you should define management, as you define it.

Have you fished other resources in the north and west and our you also using their management policies in your evaluation of the MDC. Who do you think the MDC should serve and how? Do you think tourist dollars, such as in Arkansas should play a big role?

While we're on the subject, why did you chang your handle?

Hold on hear Wayne, you use the fact that MO has springs spread out through the entire state as a way of justifying that MDC has better management than Arkansas, and then at the same time you want to say "apples to oranges" because Arkansas has better fish producing water. On one hand, you use this logic to justify your conclusion and I wouldn't have a problem with that rationale but for the fact that you use the same logic to say that we can't compare the two. One way or the other on this one my friend, you can't do both.

You say that Arkansas does not manage for children, once again do your research in Dry Creek.

As fair as bait goes, you may have me on that as I don't fish with bait regularly, but I will jump out on the limb and say that I imagine somewhere on the White that you can use bait to fish for trout.

I have never changed my handle, I still think that MDC could benefit from enacting some of Arkansas's regulations. However I have one more question: You refernence the millions of dollars that Arkansas makes off of its fisheries and say that they manage specifically waters specifically for making money, but are you sure of this? Do you not think that Arkansas may have reacted to the fact that people are traveling to their state and Arkansas thus changed their regulations to better serve the fishing public and to protect their waters at the same time and keep their fihsing at a high level?

[troutfiend1985]

Let me see if I can explain it another way...

Trout die. It's not romantic or poetic or pleasant, but it happens. A lot. Especially in wild trout streams. Due to competition, predation, disease and other factors, many fish don't make it. As long there are enough to spawn, though, the system keeps chuggin' along.

"Progressive" fishing regulations like barbless-only produce a mortality rate of around 1-3%, which is easily absorbed by the population, given that as many as 50% of the fish are going to die anyway. I'm not saying barbless is a bad idea- I use them because they reduce mangled mandibles and are easier to get out of my own skin. I'm saying implementing barbless regs under the guise of "it helps trout survival" is a pious load of BS.

MDC isn't jumping on C&R for wild trout streams because the 1 fish over 18" rule accomplishes practically the same goal without the headache of changing regs. Even with C&R regs the chances of a wild Missouri trout making it to 18" are extremely low, the chances an 18" fish is going to make it to another spawning season are lower still. Whether the fish dies in a creel, from natural causes, or by a self-righteous C&R guy with 7x tippet, the end result is still the same. You're killing a fish which was probably going to die anyway, and not having any significant on the population as a whole in the process. It's compensatory mortality, not additive- chances are good you're killing a fish which was going to regardless.

The stream closure thing I could go along with. Then again, angling pressure & traffic on wild trout streams during the spawning season isn't that high to begin with, and I'd bet a lot of the folks out on those streams at that time are aware what's going on biologically. Not to mention wild trout populations on Missouri streams appear to be pretty stable, and natural effects like flood and drought probably have more impact on population fluctuations than folks tromping through redds. But ignoring all that, I think simply educating anglers to watch out for redds & spawning fish would be as effective, and again with less headaches, than mandatory stream closures.

The Arkansas regs no doubt make sense for Arkansas- you're managing world-renowned trophy trout fisheries for hundreds of thousands of visiting anglers. You have to have restrictive regulations like C&R and barbless hooks, just to maintain the caliber of fishing that made the area famous in the first place. In truth, Missouri and Arkansas are doing the exact same thing- attempting to maximize a finite resource for the greatest number of anglers. But there's more than one way to skin a cat.

Outside, you sure place alot of faith in the fishing public for a guy who thinks that people won't even clean their felt boots after fishing. So you're telling me people won't target reds? I bet you that happens, and I know that people have walked through them as I have seen it happen before a few years back.

As with the barbless hooks, a brick isn't a wall. On a blue ribbon stream, or any other stream, 1-3%=1-3%. You can't instantly improve a fishery with one small regulation changes, its the combination of effective enforcement and sensible regulations that further conservation. One brick at a time. . .

Trout die, that's one of the biggest truisms on earth. But barbless hooks are easier to remove and cause less trauma.

If calling the Blue ribbon streams C&R is too big of a regulatory headache, and this is the justification that MDC actually uses, then MDC needs to hang up their hat. Why? Part of their duty is enforce/create their own regulations.

Yes, there is more than one way to skin a cat, excpet Arkansas' way seems to be better at skinning this perverbial cat.

[Al Agnew]

Bottom line is results. Question is, what results do you want? If you want the kind of trophy fishery that exists on the White and Little Red, you just ain't gonna get it in Missouri no matter what you do, because our "natural" trout streams do not have the potential to produce the numbers of big fish or the top end size that those tailwaters do. Size of stream, and fertility of stream precludes that ever happening. The heavily spring fed streams of Missouri are some of the most INFERTILE waters in the Ozarks. And the sheer size of the White River makes it more able to produce numbers of big fish than anywhere in Missouri. The only thing MO has that's even close is Taneycomo, and it's a different type of fishery for the most part even though it's a "tailwater".

The question is, then...can Missouri's trout fishing be BETTER? Not as good for big fish as Arkansas, just better than it is now.

And while the White River is undeniably beautiful, personally I'd much rather fish a wild trout stream in Missouri like the North Fork or Eleven Point, or even a natural stream of lesser quality like the Meramec, than the unnaturally cold, altered White...of course, part of the reason is that I can't get on the White without thinking about how good it must have once been for smallmouth!

[Justin Spencer]

If calling the Blue ribbon streams C&R is too big of a regulatory headache, and this is the justification that MDC actually uses, then MDC needs to hang up their hat

I don't know that MDC claims that is the reason, I think they are trying to do what the masses want, and it seems as if the trout fishermen on this forum support the current 1 18" fish per day in the BRAreas, because we don't feel C@R would make any difference.

Part of their duty is enforce/create their own regulations.

I would argue enforcement is much more difficult in Missouri than Arkansas due to the mileage of streams involved. With a few exceptions our anglers get spread out so it is tough to go to a spot and check dozens of anglers at a time. A conservation officer could waste an entire day looking for someone to check on a blue ribbon stream when those resources could better be used elsewhere.

Take a look at the WILD brook trout fishery in the Great Smoky Mountains, after being closed for decades they reopened it to fishing and keeping because they determined anglers had little impact on the population. This is a much more fragile resource than the naturally reproducing rainbow streams of Missouri but it seems to be doing okay with much less regulation than we have.

I have faith in the state departments knowing much better than me what is best for each area, they take yearly samples, make fish count estimates and are much more informed about what is happening in each system than any one of us could hope to be.

[Tim Smith]

I have faith in the state departments knowing much better than me what is best for each area, they take yearly samples, make fish count estimates and are much more informed about what is happening in each system than any one of us could hope to be.

Great comments by Justin and Al.

In my experience, state the DNR have incredibly difficult jobs. They work hard and answer to many masters but are still very responsive to constructive engagement. Sportfishing groups get those kinds of regulations changed all the time.

I wonder if you've talked to anyone at the Missouri DNR about this?

There's statewide C and R for Illinois stream smallmouth during the spawn because the Illinois Smallouth Alliance took the time to build relationships in the DNR, did their best to demonstrate their sincerity by being a supportive partner, and made their case privately and respectfully over time.

As a word of caution, though, if you do begin that process, be willing to listen. Don't assume you know everything just because you've read a few articles and spent some time fishing. Once you have all the facts (and some of them have been laid out pretty well above) you may well find that things are about as good as they're going to get with or without C and R...or, it may be that the DNR would like to try but needs more public support.

Uninformed, bull-headed sniping (and I'm not saying you're doing that) gets tuned out pretty quick. Supportive engagement (especially from entire groups like TU or the Smallmouth Alliance) opens ears and gets things done.

[Wayne SW/MO]

Hold on hear Wayne, you use the fact that MO has springs spread out through the entire state as a way of justifying that MDC has better management than Arkansas,

Never said better, apple and oranges, remember?

and then at the same time you want to say "apples to oranges" because Arkansas has better fish producing water.

And we're back to apples and oranges again, Why do you think it has better water? The White is unique, yet you, and others want to use it to compare departments. How about Crane, does AR have a wild trout stream, or are they behind the curve?

On one hand, you use this logic to justify your conclusion and I wouldn't have a problem with that rationale but for the fact that you use the same logic to say that we can't compare the two. One way or the other on this one my friend, you can't do both.

You say that Arkansas does not manage for children, once again do your research in Dry Creek. A ditch, literally, and once again a unique man made stretch of water.

As fair as bait goes, you may have me on that as I don't fish with bait regularly, but I will jump out on the limb and say that I imagine somewhere on the White that you can use bait to fish for trout. I don't either as a rule, I do with my granddaughter on Taney occasionally, and for your information bait fishing on the White predates C&R. What was AR thinking!

I have never changed my handle, I still think that MDC could benefit from enacting some of Arkansas's regulations. However I have one more question: You refernence the millions of dollars that Arkansas makes off of its fisheries and say that they manage specifically waters specifically for making money, but are you sure of this? Do you not think that Arkansas may have reacted to the fact that people are traveling to their state and Arkansas thus changed their regulations to better serve the fishing public and to protect their waters at the same time and keep their fihsing at a high level? Obviously they want to protect their waters and if you've been around this part of the country very long you know that much of northern AR and southern MO weren't thought to be of much use economically except for tourism.

Whether you or others like it or not, the MDC was heads and shoulders above their counterparts in AR for decades. They were not only above average in this region, but across the country.

The big complaint about trout in this state seems to be C & R. You can promote C & R more than one way. I don't believe AR has any earth moving regulations for the bulk of the White or NF do they?

How many big trout have you seen hauled up the bank at Taney's trophy area? I've seen one, but i've seen about a half dozen people who practice C & R float big ones down the stream after an extended picture taking session. I watched one that was easily over 24" go belly up after being "released" by a C & R practitioner.

[eric1978]

There's statewide C and R for Illinois stream smallmouth during the spawn

MO has that, too...kind of.