Mdc "open House Forums" On Didymo To Be Held

[Outside Bend]

That's fine OB, but just use that logic and take it to the next maximum. It only takes one person to screw up a fishery right? Regulations are great, and they serve their purpose, but without enforcement this is just paper.

And just having those regulations in place can generate a great deal of compliance, if for no other reason than folks don't want to be caught breaking the law. I'll take 75% or even 50% compliance with a mandatory felt ban over 15% or 25% with a felt ban any day.

It's not as easy to spot someone wearing felt soles as it is to spot someone poaching or keeping over their limit.

It takes as much effort to see if an angler is wearing felt soled wading boots as it would to check if an angler is using barbless hooks, keeping undersized fish, keeping fish of the wrong species, or using nontoxic gear- all relatively common fisheries regulations. Should we go about implementing fisheries regulations based on what's easiest for the game warden to enforce, or based on what's best for the fishery?

If the MDC does ban felt, ok but that better not be the last step or the purpose that this regulation is to serve will be frustrated.

Again, no one is saying felt bans are the silver bullet, just one regulation in the tool kit to maintain the health of our fisheries.

No. Just because people don't necessarily agree with a ban of felt does not mean that education is not working, and there are some holes in the felt transfer theory. SIO3 is a great example.

There's no gray zone. It's been proven felt soles pick up didymo cells. It's been proven didymo cells can remain viable in felt soles for quite some time. It's been proven felt wading boots can transport viable didymo cells from one stream to another. I can't say this enough times: eliminating felt soles eliminates a very large means by which didymo is moved from one stream to another.

I understand why there is a push to ban felt, but there are still gigantic questions out there about the transfer of this substance. I still want to know why the heck Didymo has been here for years in the White, and not in MO.

A lot of those questions red herrings. The questions you cite are about the life history and ecology of didymo, and they have nothing to do with whether didymo can be spread via felt wading soles- you're missing that distinction. The question "why hasn't didymo colonized MO streams?" and the question "Can didymo cells hitchhike from one stream to another via felt soles?" are entirely different. It's like saying we can't know mad cow disease is bad for us because we don't know enough about the breeding ecology of zebu in Tanzania...those questions are entirely separate.

Are there going to be restrictions on boats etc. ?

See? This is another red herring. Unless your boat is made of felt, and spends 10 hours a day dragging along the gravel...it's really not the same as a felt-soled wading boot. Felt boots present unique problems to disinfection, problems not associated with other fishing equipment, including boats.

We've had that discussion before on this forum and there was no answer.

There ARE answers- there are reams of data supporting one position and not the other. The answers just make some folks uncomfortable...

[troutfiend1985]

Whatever OB.

We've had this discussion over and over, and to borrow a line from Eric, you have created a "impenetrable wall of denial."

[snagged in outlet 3]

Okay let’s get in the time machine and jump forward 7 years. Felt has banned for 6 years now and diddy has spread across the MO Ozarks like a cold at a daycare. Through the miracle of science and technology, developed at Missouri Science and Technology in Rolla, we know who spread the diddy into MO.

TSI Mountain Home (Trout Stream Investigation) led by Don Paradise has identified the original vector. Don is just like Don Johnson in Miami Vice, only instead of a pastel suit and cigarette boat, Don Paradise wears Simms G3 waders and gets around on a sit on top Kayak. He’s an imposing figure.

To protect the innocent Don won’t name names but uses the culprit’s initials, OB. It has been determined that OB had been fishing The White River that fateful weekend and then made his way west to Taneycomo to fish. He didn’t have felt soled wading boots but his neoprene gravel guards were still wet when he entered the water. The few spores needed to infect the waterway were dispersed by OD unknowingly.

OB had difficulty at Taney catching any fish so he raced up 44 to catch a limit at Bennett for the frying pan. Little did he know that residing in the neoprene liner of his new Vibram soled wading shoes were more spores. They had hung on for dear life until he hit the water at Bennett Spring.

After another unsuccessful try to catch trout at Bennett he headed to a secret trout fishing location on his way to St Louis. We’ll just use the initials to throw everyone off the trail, BSC. He was also skunked at BSC but what he failed to realize were the spores that had been hiding in landing net webbing since AR.

The same net fisherman use to remove the protective slime on fish when they catch fish only to be released. He had stumbled in the water at BSC and the net which had stayed out of the water at Taney and Bennett was now transferring the deadly organism to BSC.

This my friends, is how the Ozarks became a waste land for trout fishing. When OB was informed of his misadventures he was confused, because he had not worn his felt soled wading shoes. He was extremely upset, for he was a concerned conservationist and fisherman, who loved his trout streams.

Sad and dejected upon hearing the news he looked down at his dog and said “Come on Diddmo, let’s go in and have dinner. Mom is cooking up the trout I snagged in outlet 3 on my last trip to Taneycomo.

Film at 11.

Pete

[Outside Bend]

Whatever OB.

We've had this discussion over and over, and to borrow a line from Eric, you have created a "impenetrable wall of denial."

I'm listening to your arguments and issues Troutfiend, they just don't hold any water.

There's a ton of studies out there showing felt soles pick up live didymo cells, that felt soles can harbor live didymo cells for long periods of time, that felt soles are practically impossible to 100% disinfect after a trip to an infected stream, that rubber soles trap vastly fewer live didymo cells than felt soles (zero), that felt soles present unique challenges to cleaning and disinfection that aren't an issue with other fishing equipment, that fishermen can transport stream sediment between streams via their felt wading boot soles, that didymo is a benthic organism attached to that sediment, that didymo introductions are highly correlated to angler activity, that didymo can go undetected in streams for years before appearing as nuisance blooms, that didymo can negatively impact stream invertebrate communities, that didymo can impact water quality in streams, that didymo can produce shifts in biomass in streams, that didymo can produce shifts in fish communities in streams, that didymo has adapted from nutrient-poor, clear, high latitude streams in the northern hemisphere to exploit a broader range of habitats across the world....many biologists who have actually studied the issue, from the Fish & Wildlife Service, USGS, many other state and federal agencies, fish and wildlife agencies abroad, and NGO's have looked at and support the conclusions those studies have came to.

It's not that I'm in denial, it's that there's a mountain of evidence to implicate felt soled wading boots in the spread of aquatic invasives, and you haven't provided any evidence to the contrary.

Support your position with some evidence, and I'm happy to listen.

[Trout Commander]

Okay let's get in the time machine and jump forward 7 years. Felt has banned for 6 years now and diddy has spread across the MO Ozarks like a cold at a daycare. Through the miracle of science and technology, developed at Missouri Science and Technology in Rolla, we know who spread the diddy into MO.

TSI Mountain Home (Trout Stream Investigation) led by Don Paradise has identified the original vector. Don is just like Don Johnson in Miami Vice, only instead of a pastel suit and cigarette boat, Don Paradise wears Simms G3 waders and gets around on a sit on top Kayak. He's an imposing figure.

To protect the innocent Don won't name names but uses the culprit's initials, OB. It has been determined that OB had been fishing The White River that fateful weekend and then made his way west to Taneycomo to fish. He didn't have felt soled wading boots but his neoprene gravel guards were still wet when he entered the water. The few spores needed to infect the waterway were dispersed by OD unknowingly.

OB had difficulty at Taney catching any fish so he raced up 44 to catch a limit at Bennett for the frying pan. Little did he know that residing in the neoprene liner of his new Vibram soled wading shoes were more spores. They had hung on for dear life until he hit the water at Bennett Spring.

After another unsuccessful try to catch trout at Bennett he headed to a secret trout fishing location on his way to St Louis. We'll just use the initials to throw everyone off the trail, BSC. He was also skunked at BSC but what he failed to realize were the spores that had been hiding in landing net webbing since AR.

The same net fisherman use to remove the protective slime on fish when they catch fish only to be released. He had stumbled in the water at BSC and the net which had stayed out of the water at Taney and Bennett was now transferring the deadly organism to BSC.

This my friends, is how the Ozarks became a waste land for trout fishing. When OB was informed of his misadventures he was confused, because he had not worn his felt soled wading shoes. He was extremely upset, for he was a concerned conservationist and fisherman, who loved his trout streams.

Sad and dejected upon hearing the news he looked down at his dog and said "Come on Diddmo, let's go in and have dinner. Mom is cooking up the trout I snagged in outlet 3 on my last trip to Taneycomo.

Film at 11.

Pete

That explains EVERYTHING - this whole time I thought "snagged" in your user name was for you, like you either hooked yourself or got hung up on the cable or something. Snagging a fish makes much more sense. Feel kinda silly that it didn't click sooner actually. Thanks for clearing everything up.

[Outside Bend]

Okay let’s get in the time machine and jump forward 7 years. Felt has banned for 6 years now and diddy has spread across the MO Ozarks like a cold at a daycare. Through the miracle of science and technology, developed at Missouri Science and Technology in Rolla, we know who spread the diddy into MO.

TSI Mountain Home (Trout Stream Investigation) led by Don Paradise has identified the original vector. Don is just like Don Johnson in Miami Vice, only instead of a pastel suit and cigarette boat, Don Paradise wears Simms G3 waders and gets around on a sit on top Kayak. He’s an imposing figure.

To protect the innocent Don won’t name names but uses the culprit’s initials, OB. It has been determined that OB had been fishing The White River that fateful weekend and then made his way west to Taneycomo to fish. He didn’t have felt soled wading boots but his neoprene gravel guards were still wet when he entered the water. The few spores needed to infect the waterway were dispersed by OD unknowingly.

OB had difficulty at Taney catching any fish so he raced up 44 to catch a limit at Bennett for the frying pan. Little did he know that residing in the neoprene liner of his new Vibram soled wading shoes were more spores. They had hung on for dear life until he hit the water at Bennett Spring.

After another unsuccessful try to catch trout at Bennett he headed to a secret trout fishing location on his way to St Louis. We’ll just use the initials to throw everyone off the trail, BSC. He was also skunked at BSC but what he failed to realize were the spores that had been hiding in landing net webbing since AR.

The same net fisherman use to remove the protective slime on fish when they catch fish only to be released. He had stumbled in the water at BSC and the net which had stayed out of the water at Taney and Bennett was now transferring the deadly organism to BSC.

This my friends, is how the Ozarks became a waste land for trout fishing. When OB was informed of his misadventures he was confused, because he had not worn his felt soled wading shoes. He was extremely upset, for he was a concerned conservationist and fisherman, who loved his trout streams.

Sad and dejected upon hearing the news he looked down at his dog and said “Come on Diddmo, let’s go in and have dinner. Mom is cooking up the trout I snagged in outlet 3 on my last trip to Taneycomo.

Film at 11.

Pete

It's a cute story, but it's not based in reality- I rarely fish the White River tailwaters, I clean ALL my equipment between trips and drainages, if I were in the area I'd fish the NFoW a thousand times before I'd fish Bennett once, and if I wound up in the Meramec drainage it'd be much more likely I was smallmouth fishing

Seriously though, the hypothetical rests on the premise that believe felt bans should be considered view it as a silver bullet- just change what footwear you can't spread didymo- as I've repeated ad nauseum, No one is making that claim. Here is what I'm saying, bolded, highlighted, as clear as I can make it:

Felt soles can absorb live didymo cells.

Felt soles can harbor live didymo cells for long periods of time.

Sediment can be transported between streams via felt soles.

Didymo lives in and on stream sediment.

It is impossible to effectively disinfect felt-soled wading boot- unlike other parts of your wading boot, your wading staff, your rod, your reel, your fly line, your landing net, your boot laces, etc.

If you remove felt soles from streams, the chances that live didymo will be spread from stream to stream via felt soled wading boots rapidly approaches zero.

[Outside Bend]

And if we want to deal with hypotheticals, here's my one-act play

(The scene opens on a cozy cabin on an early spring evening. It's still cool, and the fire in the potbellied stove is lit, as SIO3 sits in an easy chair, musing. Troutfiend enters and heads to the kitchen, opens the refrigerator, grabbing a beer, tracking muddy footprints across the floor in the process.

SIO3: What the hell do you think you're doing?!?

Troutfiend: (looks back at the footprints, then looks up puzzled) What?

SIO3: You're tracking mud through the cabin!

Troutfiend: (Looks at SIO3 quizzically....well yeah. I've been fishing all day. My jacket might be dirty.

SIO3: Your jacket isn't tracking mud all through the house, your boots are!

Troutfiend: (bends down sheepishly to untie his boots) You're missing my point. Since there may be dirt on my jacket, I'd be tracking dirt through the house regardless of whether I take my boots off at the door. Therefore, it's pointless to take my boots off.

SIO3: Look at your boots! They're much dirtier than your jacket!

Troutfiend: But that doesn't mean there isn't dirt on my jacket.

SIO3: But if you took your boots off at the door, you'd be reducing the VOLUME of dirt you'd be spreading throughout the house! You're greatly reducing the chances of you tracking dirt and mud through the house!

Troutfiend: We can't be sure of that- for one, there's lots of issues that haven't been resolved. What's the chemical composition of the mud? What is the optimal temperature for the mud's liquefaction? Is it silty mud, or loamy mud? Smectitic mud? Maybe it's like bentonite. Maybe there's some appealing fragrances associated with this mud. What is the rate of dessication associated with this mud? Until we answer those questions, we can't even be sure it was my boots that tracked that mud through the house.

SIO3: (Looks at Troutfiend with disbelief) The chemical composition of the mud doesn't change the fact that you walked into the house with muddy boots, that you walked across the carpet to the kitchen in your muddy boots, and that some of the mud from your boots was transferred to the carpet. The evidence is right there in front of you! Look!??! See the mud? See your muddy boots?!? You don't seen any connection between your muddy boots and this muddy carpet?!?

Troutfiend (sighs) I see the muddy boots. I see the mud. I understand that you think that by me wearing my muddy boots to get from the front door to the kitchen, some of the mud from my boots sloughed off onto the carpet, getting it dirty. I'm just saying there are other possible explanations that can't be ruled out, like the theory of continental drift. (Sighs again) Whatever. It's obvious you're not going to listen to my reasonable, well thought out arguments...it's a shame you've constructed this "wall of denial.

(Morgan Freeman reads the credits as we watch SIO3 reach for the bottle of Maker's and a glass.

[snagged in outlet 3]

It's okay I guess. But I don't muse. And I don't drink Maker's, ever. Just look at the video I shot of Jimmy bag o donuts and the intern at Taney.

Maker's will fog you noggin,

SIO3

[troutfiend1985]

Ok, and I had to admit that I was smiling while reading that. I think though, if we were really to get down to it, it would be more like this.

After having washed my boots with 5% bleach, and letting my boots dry(because I have two pairs ) I come in to your house. You still you tell me to take my boots off, I don't because as of yet I have tracked no mud into your house. Mud is not a new thing, infact it's old as dirt, but you're on the fritz because the HSN has been talking about a "clean house is a happy house" and "men who wear vibram boots don't get mud on their soles." I say, yes but I clean my soles of my boots and let them dry. I then tell you that the house is clean, I've been wearing boots like this for years and there's never been this mud in your house, but you're still unhappy. Because we're fishing buddies(and not the new odd couple TV show) I say fine, no more fights, I'll take off my boots. I sit my butt down on the sofa, and what do you know, I have mud all over my arse. "But HSN never said anything about a dirty arse" and I say that's because HSN wasn't trying to sell you a new type of toilet paper for your arse, they wanted to put new boots on your feet. And then to realize that I have dirt on my socks as well, because (in this hypothetical world we live in) socks track mud to through the boots, but people are only pointing to the boots as being the problem of messing up the house, even though the house you live in isn't messed up.

And you could have Act 2, where I come in without having cleaned my boots, muddy as heck, walk all over you brand new white carpet and not leave a mark. This would be basically SIO3 and why I keep saying that something doesn't add up.

[troutfiend1985]

Anyways, I just wanted to put this out there. By no means will I ever find a job for writing sitcoms, its pretty obvious from my post above. But, I will say that I do love our streams. And in all honesty, if they banned felt I would follow the rules and just accept the fact that this is what MDC thinks is best for our streams, I can see the purpose. I just hope that there is an increase in enforcement in the near future. As long as mountain lions don't start tracking this didymo