Actually found this on a google ad

[gonefishin]

The acid rain thing was and is real. As it turns out, there are natural buffering processes that have slowed the effects, and pollution controls under the Clean Air Act really did work to limit the damage, but some forests in the northeast have died and fish populations in some lakes have plummeted. There are other, more subtle effects that are continuing, as well, and may be bigger problems than we realize.

Both acid rain and declining ozone layer are often cited by "anti-environmentalists" as scares that didn't materialize. But they conveniently ignore the fact that a big reason why they aren't the problems we were warned about was because we actually DID something about them.

Ok, you may be right but I am talking about the "scare". They had people in a panic with their talk of no drinking water, the acid in the rain causing metal (cars and such) to disolve and various other horror stories. I remember watching a Bass fishing program and they were telling fisherman to take 10 lbs of lime and dump it in the lakes each time they went fishing to help neutralize the acid.

Since you mentioned it, yes, the Ozone scare. Do you remember when the had people panicing because the ozone was depelting and the effects of space radation being like having 2000 X-rays a day or being exposed to the same level of radation as the Hiroshima bomb every day.

I agree with you Acid rain is real however, it is nothing new. It has been known since at least the Roman Empire days. Scientists learned long ago that effect of lightning on dust particles in the atmosphere would cause rain to have higher acid content which is how they learned to make various acids that we are familiar with today.

I know there are enviromental issues and I am all about doing everything we can to correct them. The point I was tryig to make is, there are some people who use terror tactics to scare the bejesus out of people just to make a career and to get their way. In my opinion, and I know its just my opinion, the people who use these kind of tactics are nothing more than terrorists.

[jscheetz]

Gonefishin,

I think that Al's point is that we DID something about those issues.

Why did we? Sometimes the only thing that will make people sit up and take notice on an issue IS what you call scare tactics - or extremists or whatever you want to call it. If you just say "Hey, I think the planet is warming up - does it feel like it to you"? Do you think that would get anyones attention? But if you say "Lookout!!! This planet is getting too hot and is going to melt your baby's face off!!!!" - People will take notice. Sometimes the hardest step to addressing a problem is making people aware that there is a problem - you are always going on about people and groups being too extreme and we should just stay mellow about stuff - but I would say that the only people that have truly changed the world have all be pretty "extreme" in their thinking and most completly shook up the establishment and ruffled the feathers of their day, and people thought they were extremists.

All I know is in my biz - the music biz - all you have to do is look around and see that it is the most bizzare, weird, "out there" behaviour that gets all the attention (not that this is usually a good thing!!) but it is a fact - so if you want to get attention to a subject you sort have to get it out there. Not that you should make things up or "scare" people with false rhetoric, but rather look at what could happen if we don't address it.

As for the oil thing - I agree, as long as the huge companies are running the show there will be great difficulty in bringing alternatives to market. However some of the old guard is on shaky ground - ie Ford - due partly to living in the paradigms of the past while other companies are forging ahead. I will say however that the public and the market will be what will make it happen - I have been going to Europe for many years and gas being anywhere from $4 to $7 a gallon has always been the norm over there. What has this done? Most of the cars you see there get WAY better gas mileage than ours do - very small in comparison to size - you rarely see SUVs over there. So the market is shaped by the price of gas - plain and simple. And if gas hits $5 a gallon here then the market will FORCE the new technologies to the forefront.

Otherwise - we'll just stay fat, dumb, and happy.

JS

[Phil Lilley]

You make some good points.

I recognize the earth is warming. I'm not convinced man is doing it. I'm not sure we can do anything about it either. What I wish is it wouldn't be used by either side as a political issue. Just like amendment 2. Money is driving this issue on one side and ethics on the other.

[gonefishin]

I couldnt agree more Phil. As long as money, politics or extremisim is driving the issues they arent going to be honestly addressed.

JS. You forgot to mention that most Europenan countries are quiet small as compared to the US so they dont drive nearly as much. You also forgot to mention that most EU countries fund their old age retirememt systems through fuel tax. They don't have FICA taxes coming out of their pay checks. Once again it is money and politics not enviromental concern that makes it that way.

[Phil Lilley]

Another slant- safety. If someone can afford them, esp families, I'd feel safer carting my kids around in a SUV or larger vehicle vs a smaller car.

[gonefishin]

There are no two ways about that a larger vehicle does make a person feel safer.

I have driven 'green cars' for several years but I sure felt safer back in the day when I used to drive full sized vehicles.

[gonefishin]

Gonefishin,

I have been going to Europe for many years and gas being anywhere from $4 to $7 a gallon has always been the norm over there. What has this done? Most of the cars you see there get WAY better gas mileage than ours do - very small in comparison to size - you rarely see SUVs over there. So the market is shaped by the price of gas - plain and simple. And if gas hits $5 a gallon here then the market will FORCE the new technologies to the forefront.

Otherwise - we'll just stay fat, dumb, and happy.

JS

JS:

Fat, dumb and happy huh. Glad you're the one who said it and not me. Here is an 'informative' article you might find interesting. Just out on Reuters today. In light of some of your previous statements I have underlined a couple of parts you should find particullarly interesting.

Honda unveils diesel system to rival gasoline cars

By Chang-Ran Kim, Asia auto correspondent

Reuters

Sunday, September 24, 2006; 1:12 PM

HAGA-GUN, Japan (Reuters) - Japan's Honda Motor Co. (7267.T) has done it again.

The car maker that floored the world in the 1970s with the first gasoline engine to meet U.S. clean air guidelines without a catalytic converter said it has developed a new and simple diesel powertrain that is as clean as gasoline-fuelled cars.

The technology marks a big step forward for Honda at a time when rivals are racing to come up with ways to clear the world's strictest emissions regulations, called Tier II Bin 5, that the United States will usher in next year.

Diesel engines, which now power half of Europe's new cars, are slowly gaining traction with fuel-conscious consumers around the world since they typically get 30 percent better mileage than gasoline cars. Their weakness has been the higher exhaust levels of nitrogen oxide (NOx), a greenhouse gas.

Honda said on Monday its new diesel drivetrain features a unique method that generates and stores ammonia within a two-layer catalytic converter to turn nitrogen oxide into harmless nitrogen.

[jscheetz]

Hey Phil,

I don't know if anyone can prove without doubt that we are causing the warm up - but just like any issue like this - I feel it is better to err on the side of caution, because you can't go back - trouble is, that "side" is what is referred to as the environmental movement so people like my bud GF don't really want to have to "cozy up" with them on ANYTHING, lest someone accuses them of "turnin green". So it has to be politicized in order to get anything done. Unfortunately money and politics rule the world - and I don't have much of either!!

You are correct GF - it's all about the aforementioned $ and Politics - but in this country at least we do have a bit of a voice in the outcomes. (can't vote in the Queen)

JS

[gonefishin]

Now JS your getting all heated up and you got me all wrong. We have had some good discussions over the past year but you still havent figured me out so I'll tell you a few things I do and dont believe in so you will better understand me.

I don't mind the greeners. I am a tree hugger myself but I only support things that make sence and I believe in getting along with and playing fair with others.

I drive a green car; 40+ miles per gallon, it holds 10 gallon and on average I fill it 1.5 times per month. I don't fly all over the world in jets that have no pollution controls at all on them just so I can make a few bucks and I wouldn't drive a hummer even if I could afford it.

Between the emissions that come from his bus engine and from inside his bus Willey creates more pollution in a few hours than I do in a month yet, he is concidered a greener. Makes no sence to me.

I believe in trees, clean water and wild life. I just believe in these things within reason. I believe that in order to be an effictive greener one would have to be very dilligent in spotting real offenders.

I don't believe creating 2 tons of pollution to clean up 1 ton makes any kind of sence.

I don't support 96' yachts on Taneycomo and I don't support mining gravel above 65 bridge on Taneycomo.

Most of all I don't believe in or support Eco-Terrorisim in any form or fasion.

I'll finish this post up with a question. Do you think more pollution comes from the emmissions produced by cars or from the businesses that build, paint, make tires, freon, parts, transport, sell and repair them?

By the way have you caught any fish latley? I plan on going tomorrow.

[Phil Lilley]

We all have to pick our battles. GW isn't mine- right now anyhow. Amandment 2 is one I'm very concerned about and shortly I want to start a topic on it.