Trespassing In Mo Creeks And Rivers

[Wayne SW/MO]

You are the one who brought your forefathers into the equation.

Call me a "birther."

Can you provide proof positive that your forefathers came to this country legally? YES

Can you provide proof positive that all your forefathers served this country to deny the rights of others to enter this country? YES

Can you provide proof positive that you are in this country legally? YES

As for the president being a citizen of the world

That is not a qualification for the office of president.

The framers of the Constitution knew that they were all decendants of immigrants.

The constitution says nothing about an individuals ancestors or their origin, but it does require the president to be born in this country.

[Outside Bend]

And don't you think "person" as it apply's to the matter at hand is a legal citizen of this country?

There's no reason to believe the writers of the Constitution meant "citizen," when they used the term "person." These were educated, articulate, pragmatic fellas, and would've understood the difference between the two terms. If they wanted to exclude non-citizens, they could've explicitly done so. Why re-interpret the plain language present in the Constitution?

[flytyer57]

Wayne; "Can you provide proof positive that all your forefathers served this country to deny the rights of others to enter this country? YES"

You are of course absolutely sure of yourself here? Your forefathers would have denied the rights of others to enter this country when they themselves were not born here?

[Outside Bend]

My only contribution to this, as I read it amusing myself whilst my students are taking a test, is that "you're" is NOT possessive. It means "you are".

Can you define "disenstablished?" That was a new one for me

[KATroutman13]

KA, that's what I was saying, that the 5th Amendment applies to "legals" as well as "illegals", I thought I made that pretty clear. It's why I underlined persons and then bolded nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation. I'm hoping that you just misread my posts, I'm pretty up to date on the constitution, or I wouldn't be posting on it. The distinction I was making was that persons refer to everone, citizens means US Citizens. And it's obvious throught the constitution that these are used in different contexts, to refer to different rights. I.E. 14th Amendment. "All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."

TF,

I was agreeing with you and also trying to tell you that the Supreme Court has validated your position, many times. I know it is hard to believe that we agree on this topic, but we do.

[mic]

By the way Troutfriend, (since you are an oracle on immigration) what are you're solutions to the problem? It is real easy to pontificate on a subject but what are you're recommondations to fix the problems? I'd really like to here you're take on the history that has led us up to this point and who is to blame? Like I said yesterday, it is a bi-partisan problem, but I seem to be the only one who point's that out. Here, lets just cut to the chase when it comes to this issue. Republicans want them here for the cheap labor and shame on them. And the left wants them here for the votes because anyone who does not have their head up their butt realizes that the left panders to the disenstablished. And who losses, the vast majority of Americans. But I bet you're Marxist butt professor won't discuss that.

1. I don't know if he will, but I (one whom served for 20 years all over the world before I'm called a marxist) will. PS...I'm an independent.

2. History...simple this started after WWII and our economy and power grew and the socialist government in Mexico lead to stagnation. Additionally, our population moved to the west which opened up commerce near the boarder. Finally, improvements in water usage (dams, irrigation, etc) opened up the vegetable and fruit markets in southern California. Once those scales shifted to the point that "supply and demand" (capitalism) drove people to risk life, limb, and freedom to come here to work so they can support their families back home, the "rabbit hole" was opened. When you add in the drug conflicts now (which killed more people in Mexico then Iraq in 2009), we will not shut that hole for a long time. My point is this...it is a problem that can't be fixed just managed. We as an electorate don't want to face that fact.

3. Republicans and cheap labor...Americans (not Democrats or Republicans), if they want to admit it or not, want the cheap labor. No one wants to see our grocery bills go up the 20 to 30 percent required to get salary up high enough for "American's" to do that back breaking work (that's assuming if there is no union formed to improve conditions). As a whole, we talk a good game but don't really play it well. If we did, Walmart would still have the "Made In America" section. When we actually have to put our money on it, we always go the cheapest route.

4. The "Left"...actually until the turn of century the Hispanic vote was split evenly between parties if not towards republicans. The two driving factors...one the Cuban vote because Republicans where more anti-Castro. Actually when you account for the Cuban vote in Florida, the Electoral college, and the 270 votes (winner take all), there small numbers had a much greater effect on Republicans winning the White House then there actual numbers accounted for. Secondly, many Hispanic voted Republican because of the religious planks in the parties agenda. Before the anti-immigration election of 2004, Bush won 49% of the Hispanic vote but by 2008 that shifted lower to 39% even though McCain was from the southwest. Personal opinion versus data...As in independent, I think it is goofy how Republican are slashing their own throats when it is clear that the Hispanic voting block is only going to get bigger.

5. Vast majority of the American's loose...not really

- Because most American's are not willing to do the work at the pay rates most immigrates focus on, they do not directly compete for wages. In fact, most Americans would see a rise in cost if all 11 million left at once, because it would be greatly increase costs of core goods with little or no increase in wages. The only sector that would see a true benefit is under-educated high school drop outs. One estimate I found said a wage increase for the average drop out would be $25 dollars week.

- Even in competitive industries like construction, "most" American's would not see a net benefit. Again, if the 11 mil vanished more then thirty percent of them currently live in three major areas: New York, LA, and Chicago. When you consider farm versus construction, that percentage is even higher. Again if they left, there would be a shortage of personnel, wages would rise, and the population would shift...supply and demand would kick in, and wages would fall again. Yes some would benefit, but not "most".

- But mic, the illegal immigrants do put a drain on local governments and do not pay income taxes.

-- First this isn't really true. The Federal government estimates that 50 to 75 percent of illegal workers pay Federal, Local, and State taxes. They all pay sales tax which is the primary source for local city taxes, and like most low income families, pay property taxes indirectly by paying rent (the property owner pays the taxes). Uncle Sam does not require proof of legal status to get a Individual Tax Number. All Uncle Sam wants is the money. Also like most low income families, most do not make enough money to clear the standard deductions that require taxes to be paid, but they do pay into social security.

-- However, they do keep overall costs down for groceries, construction, restaurant meals which allow Americans to spend that money on other items like buying cars and better homes which provide more taxes into the economy. I have seen many numbers, but illegals probably cost us Americans, on average, less then one percent of overall wealth.

Mr. P.,

I see your passionate about your arguments, but don't trust the hype of a politician to tells you who the bad guys are and the reporters looking to make a deadline. History tells us that they normally blame the ones who can't defend themselves and/or are the easiest to alienate.

[Mitch f]

Can you define "disenstablished?" That was a new one for me

You idiot, that's the Webster's definition for the replacing of the word dysentery with the term "salad shooter"

[flytyer57]

Actually, this topic was not about immigration laws, it was about the insaneness of killing people because they were using the waters of the streams belonging to the State of MO for recreational purposes.

It just got robbed by those who want to point out that their political beliefs are more important than the life of someone else.

[FishinCricket]

Actually, this topic was not about immigration laws, it was about the insaneness of killing people because they were using the waters of the streams belonging to the State of MO for recreational purposes.

It just got robbed by those who want to point out that their political beliefs are more important than the life of someone else.

Good point.

[Mitch f]

Actually, this topic was not about immigration laws, it was about the insaneness of killing people because they were using the waters of the streams belonging to the State of MO for recreational purposes.

It just got robbed by those who want to point out that their political beliefs are more important than the life of someone else.

Understood..... if my my child were killed by some moron, I would be after their head, legal or illegal. There are just as many legal bums in this country as are illegal. A friend of mine took a concealed carry class not long ago and told me I wouldn't believe the people who are carrying guns now. Just don't assume it's such a small group anymore.

I hope it never gets to the point where we have to pack heat when we are on a family canoe trip.

Just wait until the dollar gets devalued to the point where no one wants it anymore and watch them come out of the woodwork.