Trespassing In Mo Creeks And Rivers

[troutfiend1985]

Understood..... if my my child were killed by some moron, I would be after their head, legal or illegal. There are just as many legal bums in this country as are illegal. A friend of mine took a concealed carry class not long ago and told me I wouldn't believe the people who are carrying guns now. Just don't assume it's such a small group anymore.

I hope it never gets to the point where we have to pack heat when we are on a family canoe trip.

Just wait until the dollar gets devalued to the point where no one wants it anymore and watch them come out of the woodwork.

Who needs to conceal it? I'm just going to get a holster, carry a colt on my hip like I'm John Wayne, and then buy a t-shirt that says "guns don't kill people, I kill people." Or maybe a t-shirt that says "911 is for after you smoke em'" Obviously joking.

Outside the jokes I would like to sind out my sincere thoughts and prayers for this persons family.

[Guest P. owensby]

Can you define "disenstablished?" That was a new one for me

The computer that I have access to is in the office at condo complex that I live in, sorry for the mispells but I don't have spell check for that it is disabled. I do realize that a couple of error's when it comes to grammar could be annoying. Also, it does not allow me to cut and paste, or things of that nature and in the end , it is a glorified version of a commadore 64.

[Guest P. owensby]

1. I don't know if he will, but I (one whom served for 20 years all over the world before I'm called a marxist) will. PS...I'm an independent.

2. History...simple this started after WWII and our economy and power grew and the socialist government in Mexico lead to stagnation. Additionally, our population moved to the west which opened up commerce near the boarder. Finally, improvements in water usage (dams, irrigation, etc) opened up the vegetable and fruit markets in southern California. Once those scales shifted to the point that "supply and demand" (capitalism) drove people to risk life, limb, and freedom to come here to work so they can support their families back home, the "rabbit hole" was opened. When you add in the drug conflicts now (which killed more people in Mexico then Iraq in 2009), we will not shut that hole for a long time. My point is this...it is a problem that can't be fixed just managed. We as an electorate don't want to face that fact.

3. Republicans and cheap labor...Americans (not Democrats or Republicans), if they want to admit it or not, want the cheap labor. No one wants to see our grocery bills go up the 20 to 30 percent required to get salary up high enough for "American's" to do that back breaking work (that's assuming if there is no union formed to improve conditions). As a whole, we talk a good game but don't really play it well. If we did, Walmart would still have the "Made In America" section. When we actually have to put our money on it, we always go the cheapest route.

4. The "Left"...actually until the turn of century the Hispanic vote was split evenly between parties if not towards republicans. The two driving factors...one the Cuban vote because Republicans where more anti-Castro. Actually when you account for the Cuban vote in Florida, the Electoral college, and the 270 votes (winner take all), there small numbers had a much greater effect on Republicans winning the White House then there actual numbers accounted for. Secondly, many Hispanic voted Republican because of the religious planks in the parties agenda. Before the anti-immigration election of 2004, Bush won 49% of the Hispanic vote but by 2008 that shifted lower to 39% even though McCain was from the southwest. Personal opinion versus data...As in independent, I think it is goofy how Republican are slashing their own throats when it is clear that the Hispanic voting block is only going to get bigger.

5. Vast majority of the American's loose...not really

- Because most American's are not willing to do the work at the pay rates most immigrates focus on, they do not directly compete for wages. In fact, most Americans would see a rise in cost if all 11 million left at once, because it would be greatly increase costs of core goods with little or no increase in wages. The only sector that would see a true benefit is under-educated high school drop outs. One estimate I found said a wage increase for the average drop out would be $25 dollars week.

- Even in competitive industries like construction, "most" American's would not see a net benefit. Again, if the 11 mil vanished more then thirty percent of them currently live in three major areas: New York, LA, and Chicago. When you consider farm versus construction, that percentage is even higher. Again if they left, there would be a shortage of personnel, wages would rise, and the population would shift...supply and demand would kick in, and wages would fall again. Yes some would benefit, but not "most".

- But mic, the illegal immigrants do put a drain on local governments and do not pay income taxes.

-- First this isn't really true. The Federal government estimates that 50 to 75 percent of illegal workers pay Federal, Local, and State taxes. They all pay sales tax which is the primary source for local city taxes, and like most low income families, pay property taxes indirectly by paying rent (the property owner pays the taxes). Uncle Sam does not require proof of legal status to get a Individual Tax Number. All Uncle Sam wants is the money. Also like most low income families, most do not make enough money to clear the standard deductions that require taxes to be paid, but they do pay into social security.

-- However, they do keep overall costs down for groceries, construction, restaurant meals which allow Americans to spend that money on other items like buying cars and better homes which provide more taxes into the economy. I have seen many numbers, but illegals probably cost us Americans, on average, less then one percent of overall wealth.

Mr. P.,

I see your passionate about your arguments, but don't trust the hype of a politician to tells you who the bad guys are and the reporters looking to make a deadline. History tells us that they normally blame the ones who can't defend themselves and/or are the easiest to alienate.

A couple of points, 65% off Hispanic Americans voted for the President 3 years ago as did the vast majorority of Catholics which I'm sure correspond with each other(the majority of Hispanics are Catholics, nothing wrong with that). And you did make some excelent points, however as far as the situation with Cubans in South Florida, Mic I think you have to agree that how the Cuban population thinks in Dade and in Broward county is the exception to the rule as opposed to the rest of the Hispanic population nationwide, at least the numbers in the last Presidential election would show that. One other point, I just can't agree with you on doing jobs Americans won't do. When I was in my teens I started at a landscaping outfit making about six bucks an hour, (and I know everyone is going to find this simplistic) but after many years of busting my hump and outworking both regular Americans AND people here on Visa's, I got to the point where I did make about forty thousand dollars a year and it is all due to merit and dedication. So, when you say that their are Americans who won't do that labor intensive type of work, I have to respectfully disagree. But if you are making the point that Americans work ethic is not what it used to be, I WILL agree with you on that as sad as that might be...

[Guest P. owensby]

Someone will have to present a logical one, cause it's obvious that your solution would be to take all the illegals out and whack em over the head with a shovel...

What I think is even funnier is the way you get all hot over what your ancestors may or may not have done for this country... Dude, get over yourself and take your politico-philosophical sophmoric bull to politicalcrossfire.com or something... Ya crass bastard!

Where does it say anything, anywhere about violence, or hitting someone over the head with a shovel? Where?

[Guest P. owensby]

Wayne; "Can you provide proof positive that all your forefathers served this country to deny the rights of others to enter this country? YES"

You are of course absolutely sure of yourself here? Your forefathers would have denied the rights of others to enter this country when they themselves were not born here?

Dude, you still don't get it do you, the point was based on people here without proper documentation. What part of LEGAL immigration as opposed to illegal immigration do you not get? Why even have an immigration system if it is not going to be enforced? Why have a passport system? F it, lets just have turnstyles and revloving doors to make it easier. Done ! Thank god the gal gets back tomoorow and Vaca is over Sunday. Been fun guys !!!

[mic]

A couple of points, 65% off Hispanic Americans voted for the President 3 years ago as did the vast majorority of Catholics which I'm sure correspond with each other. And you did make some exelent points, however as far as the situation with Cubans in South Florida, Mic I think you have to agree that how the Cuban population thinks in Dade and in Broward county is the exeption to the rule as opposed to the rest of the Hispanic population nationwide, at least the numbers in the last Presidential election would show that. One other point, I just can't agree with you on doing jobs Americans won't do. When I was in my teens I started at a landscaping outfit making about six bucks an hour, (and I know everyone is going to find this simplistic) but after many years of busting my hump and outworking both regular Americans AND people here on Visa's, I got to the point where I did make about forty thousand dollars a year and it is all due to merit and dedication. So, when you say that their are Americans who won't do that labor intensive type of work, I have to respectfully disagree. But if you are making the point that Americans work ethic is not what it used to be, I WILL agree with you on that as sad as that might be...

Voting...as I stated the second reason was because of religious values. What happens when ethnic concerns trump religious and the voting block goes down by 20, 30, 50% at the same time the number of Hispanic voters rises.

Florida...they may be the exception, but that doesn't reduce their importance. Just think about what happens if the voting block changes and always go to Democrats. That means Florida goes the way of California. That's a lot of votes to overcome every four years.

Working as a teen...Me to, but you and I busted hump to establish a work record with the hope (and eventual return) of making a fair wage in the long run. Also, six dollars a hour goes a lot further in Mo (where I assume you lived) then in California. However, especially today, I don't think there are enough numbers willing to sustain the huge farm worker markets of the Southwest and Southeast. I also believe the people who run those farms would agree as there has been story after story of farmers who can't find the American workers required and file for the Visa's from the government. As a social studies test, a set of farms in Arizona raised there pay from $10 to $19 dollars a hour. They could not find enough American workers to fill the positions. The main problem, if I understand it correctly, is this work is temporary and comes and goes with the seasons. The lack of steady work makes a migrate work force a better economic option.

My overall point was that migrates, legal or otherwise, are not causing "most of" harm as you stated. Generalized statements like that propagated become (at best) an excuse for US citizens and (at worst) lead to things we have to explain to our grandchildren decades from now (if you know what I mean).

[chambug]

Wayne; "Can you provide proof positive that all your forefathers served this country to deny the rights of others to enter this country? YES"

You are of course absolutely sure of yourself here? Your forefathers would have denied the rights of others to enter this country when they themselves were not born here?

The framers of our Constution were, in fact, born here but at the time of their birth they were still subject to the rule of England. They became American citizens when America became a sovereign nation after they declared their independence from England by ratifying the Declaration of Independence. This happened a full 284 years after the pilgrims landed at Plymouth Rock. They eventually defeated the British army and sent them home with their tails tucked.

Between 1492 and 1776 the colonies, which stretched from present-day Maine to Georgia, built cities, developed the Army, Navy, and Marines, and were self sufficient in every way. By this time the various colonies were comprised of settlers, including Scots, Welsh, Irish, Dutch, Swedes, Finns, Africans, French, Germans, Latins, Swiss, and English.

They were subject to the Magna Carta, which was a just agreement with England which defined their relationship. However, King George, contrary to the Magna Carta, began to tax the colonies unjustly, so they rebelled. The rebellion resulted in the War of Independence, led by George Washington, and victory in that war established The United States of America as a free and independent nation.

I challenge each of you to log into the site, Charters of Freedom and read the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution, and The Bill of Rights for yourself.

[Guest P. owensby]

Troutfiend,

Thank you very much, for bringing that point out. A point which is obvious to most people who have actually read the Constitution rather than misquote it.

P -- Most of your "forefathers" did not "fight" at all, but sent other, poor, iliterate illegal immigrants to fight for this country.

My father served in the Navy as did both of my grandfathers. My uncle who contracted M.S. and died at 53, served in the Marines during Vietnam. All of the descriptive refrences you cited about the typical soldier is disheartning at best, and in this case, I do consider the ones to have fallen before me in my family to be my "forefathers", even if you don't... Unless that is how you view the "typical soldier".

[mic]

Why even have an immigration system if it is not going to be enforced? Why have a passport system? F it, lets just have turnstyles and revloving doors to make it easier.

Economics...most illegal immigrants actual enter legally. They simply don't leave for whatever reason...money, love, fear, stupidity. It cost to much to run all of them down, so they are deported when they break the law and enter the system. The real problem is most of them are living productive law abiding lives and don't get caught. This system is the same in all the developed countries I have lived or visited.

[Guest P. owensby]

Voting...as I stated the second reason was because of religious values. What happens when ethnic concerns trump religious and the voting block goes down by 20, 30, 50% at the same time the number of Hispanic voters rises.

Florida...they may be the exception, but that doesn't reduce their importance. Just think about what happens if the voting block changes and always go to Democrats. That means Florida goes the way of California. That's a lot of votes to overcome every four years.

Working as a teen...Me to, but you and I busted hump to establish a work record with the hope (and eventual return) of making a fair wage in the long run. Also, six dollars a hour goes a lot further in Mo (where I assume you lived) then in California. However, especially today, I don't think there are enough numbers willing to sustain the huge farm worker markets of the Southwest and Southeast. I also believe the people who run those farms would agree as there has been story after story of farmers who can't find the American workers required and file for the Visa's from the government. As a social studies test, a set of farms in Arizona raised there pay from $10 to $19 dollars a hour. They could not find enough American workers to fill the positions. The main problem, if I understand it correctly, is this work is temporary and comes and goes with the seasons. The lack of steady work makes a migrate work force a better economic option.

My overall point was that migrates, legal or otherwise, are not causing "most of" harm as you stated. Generalized statements like that propagated become (at best) an excuse for US citizens and (at worst) lead to things we have to explain to our grandchildren decades from now (if you know what I mean).

If I said most of the harm, I was incorrect, and I should have been specific. As far as the farms paying 10-20 bucks an hour and still not being able to find help I think is shocking but maybe that is a cross between my naive nature and my still having faith in the American worker. If that is the case we are in deep trouble as a nation.