Trash

[Al Agnew]

I agree with Justin in that trash and litter are short term problems for the most part, compared to the damaging watershed practices he talked about, which are what I'd call medium to long term problems. In other words, you can easily clean up the trash and return the river to what it was before the trash was dumped. You have to stop those other practices and wait years, sometimes centuries, for the river to recover. So in that sense the littering is not much of a resource protection thing.

But a lot is all about perception. A trashed river, full of doofuses who continue to litter, encourages other people to treat it the same way. How many times have you come up to an access full of litter and been tempted to dump your own stuff there instead of the considerable task of cleaning everybody else's trash up? And if the river is chronically littered--and full of people who don't seem to care about anything but getting drunk and being obnoxious, it gives the perception to the landowners and locals in the watershed that it isn't worth much and they can be pretty lax about taking care of it. You have to change the perception of people to make them realize the worth of these rivers, and encouraging their use simply as wide open amusement parks and outdoor bars does just the opposite. That's where the littering and party mentality harms the resource...not so much directly, but indirectly by fomenting an air of casual indifference at best and contempt at worst.

Other than that, it really is a conflict of users. The simple crowding is part of it, but to some extent on some rivers, you can get away from the crowds by getting out of synch with the canoe rental put-in and take-out times. You can't get away from the jetboat doofuses, so that doesn't hold completely true on the bigger streams, and you can't get very far away from the crowds on streams that have very frequent accesses and multiple canoe rentals; you get ahead of the bunch from one canoe rental and end up going the short distance to the next access and arriving just as another canoe rental is putting in their hordes. And yes, I know streams where I can still find relative solitude--in fact, a few streams where I can go on a summer weekend and be dismayed if there is one other vehicle at the put-in. But the most unfortunate thing is that it's what should be some of the very best streams that suffer the most from overcrowding, relegating the rest of us to streams that are great, but not the best.

But I still maintain that the real conflict comes between those who want a relatively quiet, peaceful, wholesome experience (and may only have summer weekends to do it and depend upon canoe rentals), and those who come to the river simply to run wild with no regard for anybody else. And like so many user conflicts, it really isn't a matter of sharing, because the quiet, peaceful, wholesome people don't bother the party doofuses one bit, while the party doofuses totally ruin the experience for the others. There is no balance.

But I don't have any answers. I don't know how to change the attitudes of people who just don't care about the river or other river users. The best you can do is enforce the laws against the worst of the behavior and maybe that will discourage it.

Or build a bunch of combination bars and waterparks with whorehouses in the rear.

[Justin Spencer]

Do you think all of those people getting drunk floating the rivers are teaching they're kids about all of the things you just mentioned Justin?

I think you would be surprised by the number of people using these rivers to help teach their children, they of course aren't the big trouble makers, but chances are they got a little drunk while on the river. As a matter of fact I would say about 99% of the fishermen that come here get drunk on the river, and some even smoke a lefty while they tie their flies and get ready for their next trip.

Not everyone is here for the same reason, but there is a time and place for everyone, Al is right it is a conflict of users and until the non-drinking, non-cussing nature boys figure out how to get rid of the recreational floaters I guess you are stuck with them, and I still have a job.

[ozark trout fisher]

I think you would be surprised by the number of people using these rivers to help teach their children, they of course aren't the big trouble makers, but chances are they got a little drunk while on the river. As a matter of fact I would say about 99% of the fishermen that come here get drunk on the river, and some even smoke a lefty while they tie their flies and get ready for their next trip.

I think you're missing the point...No one minds the people who get a little drunk on the river, heck I don't think any of us could care less about people smoking pot on the river so long as they are not super loud, obnoxious, and obscene. It's not people drinking that is a problem, it's just how some yahoos act when they're drunk, having no respect for anyone else on the river.

Why I'm spending so much time on this I sure don't know. During the summer, I will continue to visit the rivers that are marginal enough not to attract crowds. But in the mean time, I've got the good water for a few months before the canoe rental crowd completely trashes them again. I don't understand, and am incapable of understanding the way some people treat our rivers, and the way they treat those who want to use the river for what it is meant for, to relax, and enjoy nature. To say that it makes me angry doesn't begin to scratch the surface, so I guess I won't talk about it anymore.

[Guest]

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[Guest]

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[Gavin]

C'mon guys....dont beatch to Justin about what you see elsewhere........the Spencer's do not put up with that....if the rental owners elsewhere did as the do....you wouldnt have much to beatch about.

[ozark trout fisher]

C'mon guys....dont beatch to Justin about what you see elsewhere........the Spencer's do not put up with that....if the rental owners elsewhere did as the do....you wouldnt have much to beatch about.

No one is saying that Justin is doing anything wrong. But I didn't think this thread was just about the North Fork, and if someone makes the point that the number of canoes that rentals put on certain rivers should not be further restricted, that's a point that I have the right to disagree with.

[Justin Spencer]

I think about everyone would agree some restrictions on boat numbers would be nice, but it is one of those things that should have happened when the problem started. For the guy that invested in 900 canoes and 200 rafts to have the rug pulled out from under him wouldn't really be fair. Like every other business he is just expanding with the market and meeting demand. On rivers with permit requirements (we must have one to put in at Hammond) the govt. can choose to not transfer permits when a rental changes hands, and getting a new permit for a start up rental is hard, if not immpossible, to get on some rivers. I have a good balance here of a full campground equalling about 150-170 canoes so I choose not to make more campsites and pursue more rentals because this seems to be the top end of what we can do and still give good customer service and keep people happy. By adding lodging instead of campsites we attract perhaps a more respectful crowd and by charging a per person camping fee we also keep away some of the people that may be more apt to cause problems (not always the case).

I think it is easy for someone who looks out the window at the river (like I am now) to see the beauty and serenity of the river as it is the majority of the time. I am here year round so I guess to me it seems like most days there is no one on the river.

I'm thankful there are people that care about these rivers like most of you do and wish as outfitters we could make everyone respectful to each other and the environment. One thing that I have realized being on our river is that many of the crazy partiers that used to go to the party rivers grow up and have families. When the kids get old enough they bring them to camp on rivers that aren't as crazy and the tradition is passed on. Some of the same people that used to cause problems become the ones that pass on a love of nature to their children (for many people this is the only connection to the natural world that they have). Every weekend I have people tell me about staying at certain campgrounds and how crazy it was and how you could walk across the water on boats. I am thankful that we don't have that on this river, and the lack of public accesses and distance from big cities should keep it that way.

By the way, tell me that first video on the Spring river of the girls in bikinis doesn't make you wish you were 18 again and in the middle of it, if it doesn't than I say grab your boyfriend and come down here for some fishing (not that there's anything wrong with that).

Now let's go fishing!

[Nortrad]

My 2 cents: Al, perception is key; Gavin, yes we should not pick on Justin; Justin, you are correct, living on the river gives you a different perception; Hooters is good, as are bikinis, and, I have never heard the term 'lefty.' NFOW is beautiful, and summer is crazy down there. Justin, Jedi and I will tell you a story of a certain drunk female down there in July 2007, my first time to the NFOW. Be prepared...

[Justin Spencer]

Jedi and I will tell you a story of a certain drunk female down there in July 2007, my first time to the NFOW

Hope it's not a story about my wife!