Trash

[Midwest troutbum]

Note to all floaters:

Pick up your shoes and beer cans after your canoe tips. Tired of picking up after you. Your mom does not live here. Tough laws and high fines should be enforced and handed down on MO floating rivers during spring & summer months. Who is in favor of mandatory weekend of cleanups as punishment for leaving or 'accidentally' leaving your trash on the streams?

[Al Agnew]

Yeah, there should be more enforcement of littering laws on the streams, but we've been down that road on a lot of things where budgets and political will won't allow for more enforcement. The real problem is the fact that we've let the streams be relegated to playgrounds for huge numbers of drunken idiots. The sheer numbers on the more popular streams insures that at least some will be slobs, and once the river gets trashed a little, more people will consider trashing it to be just part of the "experience". And it doesn't help that they aren't all "outsiders" who show up at the canoe rental places on weekends. Quite a few are local people that trash the river just as badly or worse. We missed the chance to do much about it long ago, when we were totally unwilling to put limits on the number of rental watercraft businesses allowed on the popular stretches.

I know it'll never happen and it wouldn't be fair to those with little money but a real appreciation for the streams, but if it was mandated that rentals on the popular streams were about three times the price they are now, it might keep some of the riffraff off.

[kevthebassman]

Yeah, there should be more enforcement of littering laws on the streams, but we've been down that road on a lot of things where budgets and political will won't allow for more enforcement. The real problem is the fact that we've let the streams be relegated to playgrounds for huge numbers of drunken idiots. The sheer numbers on the more popular streams insures that at least some will be slobs, and once the river gets trashed a little, more people will consider trashing it to be just part of the "experience". And it doesn't help that they aren't all "outsiders" who show up at the canoe rental places on weekends. Quite a few are local people that trash the river just as badly or worse. We missed the chance to do much about it long ago, when we were totally unwilling to put limits on the number of rental watercraft businesses allowed on the popular stretches.

I know it'll never happen and it wouldn't be fair to those with little money but a real appreciation for the streams, but if it was mandated that rentals on the popular streams were about three times the price they are now, it might keep some of the riffraff off.

Yeah, that cat is out of the bag Al. It seems that for everyone my age (25) it has become a rite of passage to come down and act a fool on the river. I've come to learn that water and alcohol are best mixed in a tumbler glass, after the day is done, not out in the sun during the heat of the day in August.

[exiledguide]

Yeah, there should be more enforcement of littering laws on the streams, but we've been down that road on a lot of things where budgets and political will won't allow for more enforcement. The real problem is the fact that we've let the streams be relegated to playgrounds for huge numbers of drunken idiots. The sheer numbers on the more popular streams insures that at least some will be slobs, and once the river gets trashed a little, more people will consider trashing it to be just part of the "experience". And it doesn't help that they aren't all "outsiders" who show up at the canoe rental places on weekends. Quite a few are local people that trash the river just as badly or worse. We missed the chance to do much about it long ago, when we were totally unwilling to put limits on the number of rental watercraft businesses allowed on the popular stretches.

I know it'll never happen and it wouldn't be fair to those with little money but a real appreciation for the streams, but if it was mandated that rentals on the popular streams were about three times the price they are now, it might keep some of the riffraff off.

I never have understood why people pursuing fish and wildlife are required to follow a whole book of rules and regulations to maintain a cuality product and if we violate those rules we are suject fines and or jail time. I think that is proper and support that. But than we allow under "for a profit" the destruction of those resources. An example of which is oneshots recent post about the destruction of his spot on the Niangua river. Going back farther the problems of the destruction of the Black River by unregulatd use of ATVs in the streambed. How many generations of fish were destroyed so that an ATV dealer could make a profit. Until we decide to take a stand were going to continue to get stabbed in the back by the elected officials who won't enforce the law.

[moguy1973]

I think that people are just ignorant to the fact that these streams are something special and are even better, great fisheries holding wonderful fish to catch. Point in case, I was floating the Huzzah not long ago and got down to near HV resort and caught the smallie in my picture. Released the fish and floated down near where some yayhoos were swimming, only to hear a guy say, "Was that a big bass? I didn't even know there were any fish in this here river, let alone big uhn's like that!" All the while in my head I knew he was also saying "I thought this place was just for swimmin and drinkin!"

[Justin Spencer]

I know it'll never happen and it wouldn't be fair to those with little money but a real appreciation for the streams, but if it was mandated that rentals on the popular streams were about three times the price they are now, it might keep some of the riffraff off.

Give me a break!

First of all that won't happen since thankfully we live in a society where things like this would have to be voted on locally and since it would hurt the local economy to put a huge tax on floating (which is the only way I could see they could mandate a price increase) I doubt the tax would pass.

Secondly more problems (and trash) happen from locals with their own floating meth labs than happen from the weekend city folks who just make more noise than anything.

I realize I am biased due to my profession, but I will once again argue that why is one persons reason for enjoying a stream any more important than anothers. I grew up floating mostly in the spring months, and my father wasn't a fisherman so we seldom had a rod with us. We were out enjoying the natural world, which quite a few of our floaters in the offseason and during the week do.

We also rent to fishermen in the offseason and during the week that I can assure you would not pay $120 to rent a canoe, they would go to public accesses (which would be really crazy if no one could afford a canoe rental).

Surely you can give the people out to "socialize" 20-30 days a year to do what they want to on a public waterway. The almighty fisherman (who never drinks, cusses, or litters) can have the rest.

I'm sure you were just looking for a solution to the problem Al, but over-regulation is not the way to do it. It comes down to enforcement again, and I wouldn't be opposed to a tax on canoe rentals if the money would go directly to hiring more officers for the waterway where the taxes were collected. Unfortunately that makes too much sense so it won't ever happen.

[Al Agnew]

Give me a break!

First of all that won't happen since thankfully we live in a society where things like this would have to be voted on locally and since it would hurt the local economy to put a huge tax on floating (which is the only way I could see they could mandate a price increase) I doubt the tax would pass.

Secondly more problems (and trash) happen from locals with their own floating meth labs than happen from the weekend city folks who just make more noise than anything.

I realize I am biased due to my profession, but I will once again argue that why is one persons reason for enjoying a stream any more important than anothers. I grew up floating mostly in the spring months, and my father wasn't a fisherman so we seldom had a rod with us. We were out enjoying the natural world, which quite a few of our floaters in the offseason and during the week do.

We also rent to fishermen in the offseason and during the week that I can assure you would not pay $120 to rent a canoe, they would go to public accesses (which would be really crazy if no one could afford a canoe rental).

Surely you can give the people out to "socialize" 20-30 days a year to do what they want to on a public waterway. The almighty fisherman (who never drinks, cusses, or litters) can have the rest.

I'm sure you were just looking for a solution to the problem Al, but over-regulation is not the way to do it. It comes down to enforcement again, and I wouldn't be opposed to a tax on canoe rentals if the money would go directly to hiring more officers for the waterway where the taxes were collected. Unfortunately that makes too much sense so it won't ever happen.

You'll note that I said it would never happen and wouldn't be fair to those without plenty of money. But I disagree with your contention that we should be willing to give the drunken idiots 20-30 days a year to do what they want, because what they want not only harms the resource, but also ruins the experience for everybody that doesn't want to do the same things they do. If I'm silly enough to try floating Huzzah Creek on a summer weekend, I'm not going to be bothering anybody, let alone the drunken idiots. But the drunken idiots are most certainly going to be bothering me, as well as any family group who only has the weekend to float and wants a family friendly atmosphere. I've been on popular streams during crowded conditions before (and not only on weekends--Friday seems to be almost as bad as Saturday on the Huzzah) and it is certainly NOT a family friendly experience. When my wife and I took our 14 year old niece on a Friday float a few years ago, we encountered drunken idiots who made sexual suggestions to her and urinated right in front of us, among other things. And since I don't carry a gun on the river, there wasn't a thing I could do about it.

So I reject your contention that these idiots have a right to use a public waterway the way they want to. And I suspect you'd find that, if such behavior could be strictly policed and limited, you'd end up getting just as much if not more business from the families (and anglers) who now avoid these streams like the plague on weekends--and you'd have fewer headaches from such people as well.

You're right, though, that as I said before, it isn't just the "tourists" who cause the problems. There is a subset of locals who are just as bad. The streams don't deserve it, and neither do those of us who value the streams for the special places they are--or should be.

[Justin Spencer]

I fully agree with you about the idiots ruining a float trip, but I said give those who wish to "socialize" (which the vast majority do on our river in a respectable manner) 20-30 days. The fish here don't care about canoes so you can catch pretty well even during busy days. Until enforcement gets better the consumer has to take it upon himself to get some info about whether or not a particular river is an environment he wants to take his family to. Much like a rated R or PG 13 movie, read the previews to see if this is something you should take your kids to.

Unfortunately people have tried to eliminate alcohol from their campgrounds and float trips and found it doesn't work. We try to be strict on our quiet hours here, and it does help business and after 8 years of weeding out the worst groups we have very few problems.

Luckily for us the laziness of most people makes the ones who really want to party just go to the closest river. Since the NFoW is not located near a major city Saturdays are really the only busy day on this river. And Bryant Creek is available also where a great experience can be had even on a Saturday (although I probably can't get you there).

I really can't speak of the other rivers and I understand some are horrible, those should be avioded, and if people are really interested in getting things changed there are better ways to do it than to make one more activity unaffordable. The families you are talking about will go to Disney if it is just as cheap as renting canoes. A family of four spending $240 to go float is not doable for most people.

I value the streams for what they are and am pleased with how the floaters treat it despite some trash (which gets picked up by responsible floaters or stream team cleanups). What really harms the streams are landowner practices. What harms OUR experience is drunken idiots.

I still see your points Al, and fully understand your complaints. Illegal activities need to be stopped on the rivers, but being loud and obnoxious I guess is free speech and still legal (just ask a New Yorker)

[Flysmallie]

I think we just need more outfitters that are trying to keep things civilized like Justin. You can't impose a tax because it interferes with our fishing. It wouldn't be right for anyone involved. But I do think there needs to be some kind of agreement that they sign that says they will remove their trash.

Al, you crack me up. You would have a fit on the river if you saw somebody keeping a short smallmouth, but a guy makes sexual references to your 14 year old niece and you just turn your head? Who took your man card? I don't always have a gun on the river either but there will be no one making references like that in front of me. Maybe if we started standing up for the RIGHT things there would be fewer wrong things happening.

[Al Agnew]

Maybe I lost my "man card" when I got old enough to have some survival sense. I ain't a very big guy and if somebody is crude and drunk enough to do what those guys did and bigger than me besides (not to mention outnumbering me) I figure discretion is the better part of valor. That doesn't mean I liked letting it go, though...makes one think that carrying a weapon might not be a bad idea. And that's also a sad commentary on how bad some of these streams have gotten.