Justin Spencer Posted October 6, 2011 Posted October 6, 2011 Maybe this listing will give DNR more teeth in watersheds that have rivers with hellbenders, doubt it but one can hope. "The problem with a politician’s quote on Facebook is you don’t know whether or not they really said it." –Abraham Lincoln Tales of an Ozark Campground Proprietor Dead Drift Fly Shop
Al Agnew Posted October 6, 2011 Posted October 6, 2011 I agree this unfortunate. But we could ban people from rivers entirely and it may or may not even save a particular species. We aren't completely in control of natural selection (hence the word natural). I don't think it's simply people on the rivers, but I'm pretty sure it isn't "natural" selection. This is what gripes me the most whenever the subject turns to endangered species. A lot of people talk as if it's a "natural" thing that critters go extinct. But that shows zero understanding of evolution and extinction. If a creature like the hellbender has survived however many hundreds of millions of years it has, and if it has survived in the Ozark streams since the last ice age at least, it would seem to be pretty well adapted to the "natural" stream environment. Animals that go extinct do so because of a few simple factors. Either some other critter comes along, entering a new niche in the ecology, and kills them off, or something about their habitat changes. At any rate, it's a change that kills them off. And change doesn't usually come fast. The "background rate" of extinction...the rate at which animals or plants go extinct during long periods of fairly stable climatic conditions, is very, very low. Animals are so well adapted to their environment that as long as it doesn't change much, they continue to thrive. It's only when things change drastically that a lot of critters go belly up. A big meteor or comet whacks into the earth and totally screws up the climate. A land bridge from one continent to another opens up and gives predators that the prey animals have never evolved to coexist with a way to get to them and kill them off. The climate maybe changes gradually but finally reaches a tipping point where some creatures can't survive in the increased heat or cold. When stuff like that happens, we get a mass extinction, a general dying off of all but the most adaptable denizens. Many scientists believe we are in the middle of one of the great mass extinctions right now, but it isn't because of "natural" causes. It's due to the actions of mankind. Leaving aside the subject we're not supposed to discuss, which may be just beginning to make itself felt extinction-wise and may or may not be caused by human activities, there is no doubt that humans have caused and are causing creatures to go extinct at rates far, far above the "background" rate. There is no doubt that humans have caused major, major changes to the habitat of many, many animals, not to mention killing some of them off directly. Whether it be clearing of land that once supported forest critters, slash and burn agriculture in the rain forests, ordinary pollution, or the exotic, never before seen on earth chemical compounds we've created and "let loose" in ecosystems, we've changed the habitat, in the case of North America in a matter of only a few tens of thousands of years (a tiny blip in the history of life on earth), in profound ways. We've changed it incredibly in just the last couple hundred years. A hundred years ago there were intact ecosystems that hadn't even been explored by the "civilized" world. So the only way that most of the huge number of extinctions in the last hundred years could be explained as "natural" is if you buy the simplistic idea that man is a part of nature so anything that humans do or manufacture is a natural thing. In the case of hellbenders, when you get right down to it, the Ozark streams that have had decent hellbender populations in the recent past haven't really changed much, at least not obviously. They still seem to be pretty good hellbender habitat. Their clarity, flow, and temperatures haven't changed drastically. Nor have humans sought out hellbenders to kill off. The cause of the demise of hellbenders has to be something that isn't obvious. Too much gravel? Human caused. Too much disturbance by human traffic? Human caused. Chemical compounds entering the waters from run-off or sewage (my best guess)? Human caused. So please don't pretend that if hellbenders disappear it's a natural thing. That just excuses business as usual. The questions should be, what IS the cause, what can be done about it, and are hellbenders WORTH doing what needs to be done? That last is a legitimate question. If we find that it's the chemical compounds in the water that are killing off hellbenders, then you have to weigh the economic costs of stopping the problem against the worth of hellbenders.
Chief Grey Bear Posted October 6, 2011 Posted October 6, 2011 Right on Al. That is everything I would like to have said but didn't know how. That is just about as informitive as you can be and still keep it basic. Very good job! Chief Grey Bear Living is dangerous to your health Owner Ozark Fishing Expeditions Co-Owner, Chief Executive Product Development Team Jerm Werm Executive Pro Staff Team Agnew Executive Pro Staff Paul Dallas Productions Executive Pro Staff Team Heddon, River Division Chief Primary Consultant Missouri Smallmouth Alliance Executive Vice President Ronnie Moore Outdoors
Justin Spencer Posted October 6, 2011 Posted October 6, 2011 Well said Al, on the NFoW the University of Florida did a study back in the 70's and hellbenders were everywhere, several years ago they ran a follow up and could hardly find any. There are several areas with good habitat that always hold some, but not like they used to. I'm sure their decline is a combination of many things, but unless they find out the slime on their skin cures cancer I'm afraid the best we can hope for is that they continue on in their present numbers. I had some fishermen leave today that said they had seen one while fishing, I still haven't been lucky enough to see one in its natural setting, but I'll keep looking. "The problem with a politician’s quote on Facebook is you don’t know whether or not they really said it." –Abraham Lincoln Tales of an Ozark Campground Proprietor Dead Drift Fly Shop
jdmidwest Posted October 7, 2011 Posted October 7, 2011 My guess is that Otters are eating them. Or maybe it is the felt soles. "Life has become immeasurably better since I have been forced to stop taking it seriously." — Hunter S. Thompson
Al Agnew Posted October 7, 2011 Posted October 7, 2011 Nah, can't be otters since their slime is mildly toxic...I wonder if their slime kills didymo.
Outside Bend Posted October 7, 2011 Posted October 7, 2011 For what it's worth, there are two hellbender species in Missouri- the Ozark is native to south-flowing streams like the NFoW and Current, the eastern is native to north-flowing streams like the Gasconade and Meramec. Neither is doing well in the state, but the eastern species has a much broader native range. Listing is a double-edged sword- it's nice to know there will be more funding to understand why they're declining, but it's also a shame that funding didn't kick in sooner, when chances were higher of recovering the species. It's cliche, but hellbenders really are a canary in the coal mine for our Ozark streams. As amphibians, they're extremely sensitive to pollution. They're long lived critters (20-30 years), and they occupy the same trophic level as many of our gamefish species- my guess is if folks saw an 80% or 90% in smallmouth or rock bass numbers in our Ozark streams, there'd be outrage, not just a shrugging of shoulders. If you get to see one, of either species, out in the wild- cherish it. They may not be around for your kids or grandkids. <{{{><
cwc87 Posted October 7, 2011 Posted October 7, 2011 The only time I ever seen hellbenders is while gigging the meramec. I was instructed not to gig them because they are a mucky mess to get off the prongs of a gig so I never did besides I was instructed that they were illegal to gig. I can see how immature giggers and careless giggers can decimate the hellbender population in an area pretty quick!!! Also, the thought of an ozark hellbender swimming around in some ones aquarium in a far away country just makes me sick to my stomach!
Kayser Posted October 9, 2011 Posted October 9, 2011 Some of the professors here in Rolla did a lot of work with them, and they're thinking it's a combination of the pet-trade demand in Asia (China, especially) and certain chemicals in the water. Mainly chemicals, but the poachers aren't helping anything. Rob WARNING!! Comments to be interpreted at own risk. Time spent fishing is never wasted.
laker67 Posted October 9, 2011 Posted October 9, 2011 If my failing memory serves me correctly, the alligator snappers and the hellbenders started declining in numbers about the same time. Which I think was maybe around 1980 or so.
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