exiledguide Posted November 20, 2011 Posted November 20, 2011 Sounds like even more great reasons to subsidize it then, doesn't it??? But I would rather farmers be subed to use switchgrass than corn. Even better for mother earth and all the critters. I agree chief, I just get tired of people spouting Big Oils bullshit about every renewable energy resource. One example, a few years ago we were being told that wind turbines wouldn't work and they would kill all the ducks because they would fly into them. I guess big oil forgets that still into the 1950s wind mills were used on a lot of farms includeing my Dads cousins out near Hermann Mo and I never saw a dead duck under any of the windmills.
Quillback Posted November 20, 2011 Posted November 20, 2011 The BS in this thread ain't coming from the "Big Oil" folks.
Chief Grey Bear Posted November 20, 2011 Posted November 20, 2011 You're also paying more for food as corn prices have shot up due to ethanol. Gas prices are staying above $3/gallon in spite of ethanol. I keep hearing that, but I can't say I have experienced it. I am still paying about a $1 a bag for frozen corn. Like I have for the last 5+ years. I am still paying about $4 for a chicken to fry. Now I will conceed that prices have increased. But I think it is due more to profits and employee compensation than the price of corn. Just my thought though. Certainly nothing scientific. I agree chief, I just get tired of people spouting Big Oils bullshit about every renewable energy resource. One example, a few years ago we were being told that wind turbines wouldn't work and they would kill all the ducks because they would fly into them. I guess big oil forgets that still into the 1950s wind mills were used on a lot of farms includeing my Dads cousins out near Hermann Mo and I never saw a dead duck under any of the windmills. Yeah I don't buy a whole lot into that windmill theory. House cats kill more birds than windmills. Chief Grey Bear Living is dangerous to your health Owner Ozark Fishing Expeditions Co-Owner, Chief Executive Product Development Team Jerm Werm Executive Pro Staff Team Agnew Executive Pro Staff Paul Dallas Productions Executive Pro Staff Team Heddon, River Division Chief Primary Consultant Missouri Smallmouth Alliance Executive Vice President Ronnie Moore Outdoors
Quillback Posted November 21, 2011 Posted November 21, 2011 Corn prices per bushel were around $2.90 in January 2007, now it's trading around $6.30 a bushel. It's a real price increase especially to livestock growers. It's certainly not all due to ethanol, but it's a factor.
exiledguide Posted November 21, 2011 Posted November 21, 2011 The BS in this thread ain't coming from the "Big Oil" folks. It's bullshit that we have never lost a member of our armed forces defending the source of Ethanol? It's bullshit that we send no money to Saudi Arabia for Ethanol?
Chief Grey Bear Posted November 21, 2011 Posted November 21, 2011 Corn prices per bushel were around $2.90 in January 2007, now it's trading around $6.30 a bushel. It's a real price increase especially to livestock growers. It's certainly not all due to ethanol, but it's a factor. I think if you look at corn prices for the last 30 years, they have always been somewhat stagnant. Usually in the $3 range + or - a few cents. I would think that since everything else has at least doubled in price since then, why not corn??? I don't hear any corn farmers crying about it. And with cattle prices as high as they are, there aren't many cattle farmers screaming either. There is no and will be no shortage of corn. Your biggest problem in the ag industry is the ag industry and corporate farms. But we are starting to see a small trend back towards family farms and farmers markets. People are willing to pay a little more for local quality. And there ain't nothing wrong with that. Chief Grey Bear Living is dangerous to your health Owner Ozark Fishing Expeditions Co-Owner, Chief Executive Product Development Team Jerm Werm Executive Pro Staff Team Agnew Executive Pro Staff Paul Dallas Productions Executive Pro Staff Team Heddon, River Division Chief Primary Consultant Missouri Smallmouth Alliance Executive Vice President Ronnie Moore Outdoors
Al Agnew Posted November 21, 2011 Posted November 21, 2011 Hey guys, don't know where Phil is, but he'd be chopping this thread any time now. Please refrain from the curse words, at least. On the original subject...it seems to me that just about all conservation spending is potentially on the chopping block because, no matter what conservative voters think about it, conservative politicians have shown over and over again that they do not value anything that even remotely smacks of environmentalism. And liberals may give lip service to conservation, but it often isn't a priority with them either. So any conservation program is a prime candidate for cutting. And when you add to that the talk of selling off public lands and increased development of public lands for producing shale gas and shale oil, hunting and fishing opportunities are in danger of decreasing, not to mention the damage to natural ecosystems. The thing that's always discouraged me as a conservationist and yes, an environmentalist, is that battles are seldom if ever really won. We might win temporary victories, but the pressures to reverse those victories soon build up again and you have to fight the same battle all over again. But when you lose, it's hard to reverse it, and sometimes impossible because what you were fighting for is gone forever. And it's especially difficult to win victories in tough economic times because for too many people, conservation is considered a luxury item that's always trumped by short term economic gain.
Tim Smith Posted November 21, 2011 Author Posted November 21, 2011 Hey guys, don't know where Phil is, but he'd be chopping this thread any time now. Please refrain from the curse words, at least. On the original subject...it seems to me that just about all conservation spending is potentially on the chopping block because, no matter what conservative voters think about it, conservative politicians have shown over and over again that they do not value anything that even remotely smacks of environmentalism. And liberals may give lip service to conservation, but it often isn't a priority with them either. So any conservation program is a prime candidate for cutting. And when you add to that the talk of selling off public lands and increased development of public lands for producing shale gas and shale oil, hunting and fishing opportunities are in danger of decreasing, not to mention the damage to natural ecosystems. The thing that's always discouraged me as a conservationist and yes, an environmentalist, is that battles are seldom if ever really won. We might win temporary victories, but the pressures to reverse those victories soon build up again and you have to fight the same battle all over again. But when you lose, it's hard to reverse it, and sometimes impossible because what you were fighting for is gone forever. And it's especially difficult to win victories in tough economic times because for too many people, conservation is considered a luxury item that's always trumped by short term economic gain. I agree some cuts are inevitable. The votes aren't there to keep everything intact and yes, some cuts are necessary. I also think discouragement is a luxury we can't afford. What are the options to that? So if/when government pulls back support, what's there in the private sector to keep the resource intact? Leases? Ecocertifications? It's not like there's no answer at all, it's just that they're not developed or well appreciated yet...and yes it's not clear they'll work. Some of those functions might roll back to smaller units of government at the state and county but in general they're in trouble too. It's time to get creative.
Justin Spencer Posted November 21, 2011 Posted November 21, 2011 Corn prices are much higher now than they have been in the last 30 years. I would guess that $1 bag of corn is much smaller than it used to be (neat little trick the food industry uses to make it seem like prices stay the same). From what I have heard beef prices are through the roof, luckily I raise my own and grass feed so no crazy feed costs involved. With corn being in almost every food product we buy grocery prices will continue to rise. One of the biggest costs involved with ethanol is the amount of land that is lost due to increased corn production. This land could be used for other crops, or held idle for conservation practices. Agriculture in the US is shifting to corn production primarily and the farmers sure won't complain, with genetically engineered corn it is easy to grow, but if we have a water shortage farmers will be in trouble due to the huge amounts of water required to grow it. I think ethanol would be great if we used switchgrass or another perennial, but not corn. "The problem with a politician’s quote on Facebook is you don’t know whether or not they really said it." –Abraham Lincoln Tales of an Ozark Campground Proprietor Dead Drift Fly Shop
Al Agnew Posted November 21, 2011 Posted November 21, 2011 Corn ethanol has had an interesting and contentious history. Some segments of the environmental community were all for it when it was first proposed as a partial replacement of gasoline, but the corn growers' lobby immediately jumped on it for obvious reasons. Meanwhile, other environmentalists were always against it, mainly for the reasons Justin mentioned. Then after it got into major production and the problems really started showing up, most environmentalists turned against it. But politicians in the corn growing states, bolstered by the corn growers' lobby, have remained solidly for it. Corn is simply not the best choice for ethanol production. Of course, there is too much corn grown in America for other reasons as well--high fructose corn syrup that is used in just about every food item you buy off the shelf is one reason we're seeing an obesity epidemic in this country...it's simply not all that healthy for you. Switchgrass would be a much better ethanol crop, but who knows...there may be problems with it we aren't seeing at this point as well. The nice thing about ethanol is that it can be produced from a variety of plants, and eventually we would hit upon the best choice if we aren't wedded to using corn.
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