Fires

[gonefishin]

To re-introduce, introduce or whatever term one wants to use, a large predator and NOT look at the downside is not only faulty science it is downright fool hardy. My point was not whether or not wolves hunt down people with the sole intent of attacking them but rather to bring to forethought the idea that there are always downsides when dealing with large predators. Wolves are a large predator just like alligators, black bears and great white sharks just to mention a few. To make the statement that wolves, or any large predator for that matter, NEVER attack people is to infer that they are not dangerous and that is not only mis-leading it potentially puts peoples lives in danger. Stingrays are the pussycats of the sea but they are still dangerous... or wait, I know, the whole Steve Irwine thing is just a big conspiracy to dis-credit the Stingrays of the world. Yeah, that’s it I bet he is living it up with Elvis right now.

I think its a job for natural selection, if you thing you're prime for being selected for the Red Riding Hood award, stay out of the woods.

Now thats funny I dont care who ya are.

[Wayne SW/MO]

I just have to smile at the thought that wolves are a danger. Wolves, at least according to Animal Planet , stay in packs and hunt systematically. I suspect attacks are very rare.

Now if you want to talk large predators who hunt as singles, stalk on padded feet, and who could leap small buildings if they wanted too, look no farther then the Mountain lion, Cougar, Puma or what ever.

There are numerous recorded attacks and thanks to a California vegetarian, on the increase.

[jscheetz]

"Red riding hood" - Thats a good one Wayne!!

And I wouldn't worry bout the Mountain lions - now that the word is out about them killin innocent people the good people of this board like Gonefishin will be out there after em!

Seriously GF - you know I love these debates with you - "but these aren't just bluegills in your pond" :ph34r: - you are a bit mis-informed about the reintroduction of wolves into Yellowstone. There was an INCREDIBLE ammount of research and many amazing public debates between the pro and con sides to re-establishing wolves after all the years of their absence. Several books and papers written before hand. I read most all of it. Many good points were made on both sides of the argument and it was discussed first and foremost of how these are large predators and they will eat cows occasionally. So everyone was aware there would be some problems.

But there are so many more interesting things happening in Yellowstone - things that nobody had even guessed would happen when you bring a large predator that had been missing from the food chain for 50 years back into the mix. What you say? Like the fact that beavers are building in Lamar valley. For the first time in 30 years - why? Because the Elk can't just stand around next to the river and graze on the foilage like they used to - might get eaten by a wolf - So therefore the willows are growing and where they do - you guessed it, here come the beavers. (which btw is good news for us long rodders). So there are a lot of things being studied and many things that have surprised both sides - but the fact that there will be human/wolf conflicts was NEVER an unknown.

JS

[stone9-7=2]

JS,

Here you go read this pretty interesting but don't know how factual it is.

www.aws.vcn.com/wolf attacks on humans.html

www.peterboro.net/~wolf/attacks.html

9-7=2

[Wayne SW/MO]

Couldn't either to work stone.

While we're talking about attacks, we shouldn't forget momma Bear protecting her cubs.

[gonefishin]

If you can send me documented information on wolves attacking man in the U.S. I would love to see it - Good luck.

JS

'cheetz:

I wasn't thinking about the power of the internet when I said I couldn't produce any documentation. I did a little research and found some info you might wish to read. Some US and some Canada but all North America.

People tend to downplay the negative when supporting a claim. Saying wolves never attack is a dangerous statement. Letting the forrests burn unabated is not a good policy either. That doesnt mean they have to go all out for every little puff of smoke but they should not let things get completly out of hand either.

Anyway happy reading. By the way these are all documented cases some old some new.

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Noted naturalists documented wolf attacks on humans. John James Audubon, of whom the Audubon Society is named, reported an attack involving 2 Negroes. He records that the men were traveling through a part of Kentucky near the Ohio border in winter. Due to the wild animals in the area the men carried axes on their shoulders as a precaution. While traveling through a heavily forested area, they were attacked by a pack of wolves. Using their axes, they attempted to fight off the wolves. Both men were knocked to the ground and severely wounded. One man was killed. The other dropped his axe and escaped up a tree. There he spent the night. The next morning the man climbed down from the tree. The bones of his friend lay scattered on the snow. Three wolves lay dead. He gathered up the axes and returned home with the news of the event. This incident occurred about 1830. (Audubon, J.J., and Bachman, J.; The Quadrupeds of North America, 3 volumes. New York, 1851 - 1854)

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“NEW ROCKFORD, DAK, March 7 - The news has just reached here that a father and son, living several miles northeast of this city, were destroyed by wolves yesterday. The two unfortunate men started to a haystack some ten rods from the house to shovel a path around the stack when they were surrounded by wolves and literally eaten alive. The horror-stricken mother was standing at the window with a babe in her arms, a spectator to the terrible death of her husband and son, but was unable to aid them. After they had devoured every flesh from the bones of the men, the denizens of the forest attacked the house, but retired to the hills in a short time. Investigation found nothing but the bones of the husband and son. The family name was Olson. Wolves are more numerous and dangerous now than ever before known in North Dakota." (Saint Paul Daily Globe, March 8, 1888)

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Algonquin Provincial Park is one of several areas where people are encouraged to "howl" at the wolves in hopes of a response from the wild wolves in the area. In August, 1996, the Delventhal family of Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, were spending a nine-day family vacation in Algonquin and joined a group of Scouts in "howling" at the wolves. They were answered by the howl of a solitary wolf.

That night the Delventhals decided to sleep out under the stars. Young Zachariah was dreaming when he suddenly felt excruciating pain in his face. A lone wolf had bit him in the face and was dragging him from his sleeping bag. Zach screamed and Tracy, Zach's Mother, raced to his side and picked him up, saturating her thermal shirt with blood from Zach's wounds.

The wolf stood menacingly less than a yard away. Tracy yelled at her husband, Thom, who leapt from his sleeping bag and charged the wolf. The wolf retreated and then charged at Tracy and Zach. The charges were repeated. Finally the wolf left. Thom turned a flashlight on 11-year-old Zach and gasped "Oh, my God!" "The boy's face had been ripped open. His nose was crushed. Parts of his mouth and right cheek were torn and dangling. Blood gushed from puncture wounds below his eyes, and the lower part of his right ear was missing." Zach was taken to a hospital in Toronto where a plastic surgeon performed four hours of reconstructive surgery. Zach received more than 80 stitches in his face.

Canadian officials baited the Delventhals' campsite and captured and destroyed a 60-lb wild male wolf. No further attacks have occurred since. (Cook, Kathy; "Night of the Wolf" READER'S DIGEST, July 1997, pp. 114-119.)

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Two wolf attacks on humans occurred in 2000.

Icy Bay, Alaska - Six-year-old John Stenglein and a nine-year-old friend were playing outside his family's trailer at a logging camp when a wild wolf came out of the woods towards the boys. The boys ran and the wolf attacked young Stenglein from the back, biting him on the back and buttocks. Adults, hearing the boy's screams, came and chased the wolf away. The wolf returned a few moments later and was shot. According to Alaska Department of Fish and Game (ADF&G) officials, the wolf was a healthy wild wolf that apparently attacked without provocation. The boy was flown to Yakutat and recieved stitches there for his wounds. Later, however, the bites became infected and the boy had to be hospitalized. (Reports and Interviews on file and available upon request.)

Vargas Island, British Colombia - University student, Scott Langevin, 23, was on a kayak trip with friends. They camped out on a beach and, about 1 AM, Langevin awoke with something pulling on his sleeping bag. He looked out and came face to face with a wild wolf. Langevin yelled at the wolf and it attacked, biting him on the hand. Langevin attempted to force the wolf toward a nearby campfire, but as he turned, the wolf jumped on his back and started biting him on the back of his head. Friends, hearing his yells, came to his aid and scared the wolf away. Fifty (50) stitches were required to close the wound on Langevin's head. British Colombia Ministry of Enviroment officials speculate the reason for the attack was due to the wolves occasionally being fed by humans although there was no evidence that Langevin or any of his party fed these animals. (Reports and Interviews on file and available upon request.)

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Jerry George

Saturday, January 14, 2006

Bad news.

A story reached my desk yesterday about the death of Kenton Carnegie, 22, a geology student. Carnegie was attacked and killed by wolves while hiking in remote Northern Saskatchewan. Carnegie is the first human known to have been killed by healthy, wild wolves in North America.

The incident took place in early November, but yesterday's story was the first I'd heard of the unfortunate tragedy.

Those of us who stand a few feet back from the impassioned wolf watchers have wondered when a person would fall victim to wolves. Wolves are wild animals. They have a long track record of killing people in Europe and elsewhere, about which I will offer a bit of perspective in a moment. But, before this, death by wolf was unknown in North America.

I have been able to find 27 recorded wolf attacks on humans in North America.

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Death in Canada could alter state's wolf debate; Apparent attack

Milwaukee Journal Sentinel, The, Dec 22, 2005 by LEE BERGQUIST

The grisly circumstances surrounding the death of a 22-year-old man in northern Saskatchewan are likely to influence the debate over wolf policy in Wisconsin.

On Nov. 8, student Kenton Joel Carnegie was walking alone near a remote camp owned by a mining exploration company when it is believed that he was killed by wolves.

Though an investigation is continuing, some wolves in the area had been attracted to a garbage dump and appeared to be less fearful of humans. Thus far authorities said Carnegie's death is thought to be the first documented case in the wild of healthy wolves killing a human in North America since 1900.

"I think you can safely say that wolf attacks are rare, and fatal attacks are unknown," said Paul Paquet, a wolf biologist at the University of Calgary who is helping to investigate the death for provincial authorities. "So this attack is really exceptional."

In Wisconsin, citizens and officials who are involved in wolf policy say the purported attack will shape the wolf debate at a time when the population of the animal is growing in the state.

Wolf packs, operating in areas of 20 to 120 square miles, cover the northern one-third of the state and portions of central Wisconsin.

The Department of Natural Resources estimated the state's gray wolf population was at 425 to 455 during the 2004-'05 winter up from 373 to 410 wolves the previous winter.

The gray wolf is listed as a state-protected wild animal by the Wisconsin DNR. The U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service lists wolves as federally endangered.

It is illegal for citizens to shoot a wolf.

The death in Saskatchewan "will change the semantics of the discussion," said Pam Troxell, coordinator of the Timber Wolf Alliance in Ashland.

"People have already talked to me, If it happened up there, will it happen here?' "

Killing possible but not likely

Adrian Wydeven, Wisconsin's top wolf expert, said the likelihood of a human being killed by a wolf is a "possibility, but at the same time, it would be a very rare event." State officials are not aware of any wolf attack on humans in Wisconsin, he said.

But Wydeven, a DNR biologist, agreed that Carnegie's death is likely to be brought up as Wisconsin's wolf policy evolves.

"I think that it will be another factor in the debate that wolves can kill people," he said.

That's because wolf advocates have repeatedly asserted over the years that wolves have never killed humans in North America, said Eric Koens, a member of the Wisconsin Cattlemen's Association who has been active on wolf matters.

"The pro-wolf people have been making excuses for years . . . that wolves avoid people, they have never killed people," said Koens, a cattle farmer from Bruce in Rusk County. "Personally, this doesn't surprise me.

"If you have a pack of wolves, I don't know why people would suspect that they wouldn't prey on humans when it is well known that wolf packs can take down an adult cow, moose and buffalo."

As the wolf population has rebounded, livestock farmers have pushed authorities to kill wolves that venture onto farmers' property and harass or kill livestock.

Authorities in Wisconsin killed 29 wolves between April and September until officials were required to stop after a federal court ruling, Wydeven said.

Bear hunters also are complaining that wolves are killing their dogs.

Troxell said groups such as the Timber Wolf Alliance have tried to emphasize the need for the public to steer clear of wolves.

"Now I think the discussion will be a little different," she said. "I think there will be a lot of defending by biologists and people like ourselves."

Attracted to garbage dumps

Carnegie's body was found at Points North Landing near Wollaston Lake in the northern boreal forest. Paquet, who has visited the area as part of his investigation, likened it to "Wisconsin and Michigan with stunted trees."

Though very remote, the area has experienced an influx of industrial activity especially uranium mining and oil and gas exploration, Paquet said.

A key finding thus far is that Points North Landing has garbage dumps that have attracted wolves.

Paquet also said the wolves might have been fed by workers. Between two and four wolves are believed to have attacked Carnegie.

In other instances of wolf attacks in North America, especially in Canada, Paquet said that garbage has usually been available to wolves, allowing them to become less fearful of humans.

That's a problem.

"This is a situation that could lead to additional attacks," Paquet said.

There are parallels to states such as Wisconsin, he said, where there are significant wolf populations and growing numbers of people in areas where the wolves live.

"It creates a situation where a lot of city folks are moving in, there is inadequate securing of garbage, the wolves are habituating and . . . there are many people working in these areas where they have very little background with wildlife."

No longer fearful of people

In Wisconsin, the DNR is getting reports of wolves who are feeding on dead animals along roadsides and don't run away when cars approach.

"Once they become habituated to people, they are no longer fearful of people and there is more of a chance of biting," Wydeven said.

"This sort of illustrates the situation with animals with predatory instincts, but they have no fear of people and then they can sometimes turn on people."

There have been other wolf attacks. In an area near where Carnegie was killed, Paquet said he interviewed a worker who was jogging to work in 2004 when he was attacked by a lone wolf.

The worker, who also was an artist and painted pictures of wolves, was in excellent physical condition more than 6 feet tall and 220 pounds. Though he was able to get the wolf in a headlock and escape, he was "pretty traumatized, he was not a happy camper and (as he wrestled with the wolf) wondered where the rest of them were," Paquet said.

Wolves were considered extirpated in Wisconsin from 1960 through about 1974, but then some animals ventured in from Minnesota without a state-sanctioned reintroduction plan.

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As their numbers grew in the U.S., the Fish and Wildlife Service, a federal agency, removed some protections of wolves in 2003 and downgraded the status of the wolf in Wisconsin from endangered to threatened.

The change permitted authorities to shoot problem wolves, but the plan was challenged. A federal judge agreed with opponents who said the government's actions would roll back protections in some eastern states that had little or no wolf populations. Federal officials were required to reinstate the endangered species protections for wolves.

The DNR expects to receive a new permit from the federal government early next year that would allow killing some problem wolves.

425 to 455 Number of wolves estimated to be in Wisconsin during the 2004-'05 winter up from 373 to 410 wolves for the previous winter

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This one was in Ontario Canada the article is in French so rather than post it I am posting the link. Basically it is about 6 people who were attacked on an Ontario Beach.

http://www.cyberpresse.ca/article/20060907...19/CPACTUALITES

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Terrifying wolf attack a nightmare for family; Girl fights back during assault on park beach north of Sault

Frank Dobrovnik

- Wednesday, September 06, 2006 @ 09:00

Emily Travaglini-Wright started high school Tuesday with a new accessory - a colourful sling to hold her mauled right arm.

Travaglini-Wright, 14, was one of five people attacked by a black wolf Monday at Katherine's Cove beach in Lake Superior Provincial Park.

"It was surreal. It was like something out of a Stephen King novel," said her aunt Leslie Wright Tuesday morning, just hours after returning from Lady Dunn Hospital in Wawa.

Leslie, her sister-in-law Brenda Wright and four children between them were enjoying a Labour Day afternoon at this popular sandy spot about 70 kilometres south of Wawa when what she thought was a "tall, skinny" dog jumped from the bush.

"We were all lying there like the perfect smorgasbord of people."

The wolf first set upon her son Jake, 13, grabbing him by the right ankle, "but he couldn't get a good grip, so he got away."

He then pounced on Brenda's son Casey, 12, sinking his teeth into his right thigh and "flung him."

By this time, everyone was yelling and Leslie was snapping a towel at the animal, who would not be discouraged. It bit Brenda, then set its sights on Emily, who Leslie calls "the toughest 14-year-old you'd want to see."

The girl buried her forearm in the animal's mouth, minimizing bites to the face and head, and retreated into the water until the wolf - which was limping and appeared to have an injured paw - backed down. "She was so strong. She fought him. She wasn't going anywhere."

Leslie estimates the whole ordeal took about five minutes, "but it just like felt like a never-ending nightmare."

Then the waiting began. Injured, crying, the party watched from Bathtub Island as the wolf systematically went through their coolers and paced up and down the beach for his next chance.

At one point, the wolf went back into the bush and they heard a scream. They later learned a nearby three-year-old, Leah Talbot, had been bitten on the arm. The wolf returned.

Two hours passed. Finally, they spotted a couple walking along the shore and called for help. Three parks officers shortly arrived, chased the wolf into the bush and killed it with a shotgun kept at the park for just such a purpose.

Park superintendent Bob Elliott has never responded to a wolf attack in his 17 years on the job. Elliott guesses its injured forepaw kept it from being able to catch its usual prey, forcing it to turn to humans.

He said there was no sign the animal was rabid.

Its body has been transported to Sault Ste. Marie for forensic testing. Algoma Health Unit has also taken samples and will relay results to the victims.

The five victims required treatment for varying injuries. Emily's were the most extensive, requiring stitches for about two dozen puncture wounds to her arm.

The wounds may fade but the memory won't, Leslie said.

When they exited the hospital around 1 a.m., Emily spotted two little dogs and blanched, she said.

"I think we all have post-traumatic stress disorder."

They were also due to have rabies shots Tuesday as a precaution and expect test results today.

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First fatal wolf attack recorded in North America?

by Sarah Gilman

Conservationists have long assuaged the public’s fear of wolves by saying that there have been no documented instances of a healthy wild wolf killing a human being in North America. Until now, that is.

On Nov. 8, a search party found the partially consumed body of 22-year-old Kenton Joel Carnegie in the woods of northern Saskatchewan. Carnegie had gone for a walk and didn’t return to the surveyors camp where he was working.

Paul Paquet, a University of Calgary ecologist who investigated the case, says a recent increase in energy development has drawn more people to the remote area and left it peppered with open garbage dumps. Four wolves fed regularly at a nearby dump and had lost their natural fear of people.

Those wolves are the most likely culprits, and at least three have been killed. But investigators have not yet ruled out the possibility of a bear attack.

To prevent wolves from becoming accustomed to humans, Paquet advises securing any food left in dumps or campsites. People should stay at least 100 yards from wolves, he says.

In the United States, there are some open dumps in wolf country, says Fish and Wildlife Service wolf recovery coordinator Ed Bangs. But, he adds, many people already bear-proof their garbage, and authorities haze overly bold wolves with noise-making "cracker shells" and rubber bullets.

Given that a handful of fatal wolf attacks have been recorded in India and Europe, experts say such an attack in North America has always been a possibility. But the odds are extraordinarily low, points out L. David Mech, a leading wolf biologist: "Wolves are still not any more dangerous than they ever were."

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Wolf attacks and encounters in Canada

CBC News Online | March 10, 2006

Wolf experts say attacks on humans are rare and fatalities involving wild wolves are virtually unheard of. Here's are some notable wolf attacks and incidents from recent years.

November, 2005

At Points North Landing, Sask., Kenton Joel Carnegie, 22, died after an apparent wolf attack, although the province has yet to release its final report on the case. There have been reports that wolves in the area had been eating garbage from an open landfill nearby.

December 2004

Near the Key Lake mine, Sask., Fred Desjarlais was jogging down a mine road when he was attacked by a wolf. It repeatedly bit him on the arms and torso. He wrestled it to the ground. Some co-workers arrived in a vehicle and helped scare the wolf away. The mine operator, Cameco, later put an electrified fence around its dump.

June 2000

A man in a sleeping bag camping out at Vargas Island, B.C. was repeatedly bitten by a wolf. He needed more than 50 stitches. An investigation later determined people had been regularly feeding the wolf and a companion.

August 1996

In Algonquin Provincial Park, Ont., a wolf bit into the face of a sleeping 12 year old boy and dragged him off about two metres before being driven away by the boy's father. The wolf was shot. An examination of its stomach contents revealed it had been eating people's garbage.

April 1996

A 24-year-old woman working at the Haliburton Forest and Wildlife Reserve near Haliburton, Ontario was found dead surrounded by several wolves. The animals had been been raised in captivity on the reserve.

June 1995

At Ellsmere Island, Nunavut, a wildlife officer was outside her living quarters in the park when she saw 11 wolves heading her way. She moved to go inside but one of the wolves grabbed her sleeve with its teeth. She screamed and it let go. She later expressed concerns that photographers in the area had been feeding wolves and that wolves outside the park had been visting garbage dumps.

1984

Near the Key Lake mine, Sask., a worker was walking along a mine site road carrying his lunch when a wolf approached from behind and grabbed his sleeve. The man pushed his lunch bag at the wolf, causing the wolf to let go. The man hid in a culvert until some co-workers arrived

[stone9-7=2]

Wayne it is the same stuff gonefishing is posting now did you type the whole thing in you can also do a search which is what i did under wolf attacks,

lot's of info from around the world,& no you can't forget momma bear & her cubs or any momma protecting there young & that goes for human moms too.

9-7=2

[jscheetz]

Good work Gonefishin!

I would say two things - the point that I was trying to make was that there were no wolf Kills of humans - sorry I didn't specify the death part - And if you have to fill up the list by going back to 1851 with wolves attacking "2 Negroes" - that is pushing it a bit

However - on the one and only "possible" death - In your own research it says and I quote

Those wolves are the most likely culprits, and at least three have been killed. But investigators have not yet ruled out the possibility of a bear attack.

Smacks of anti-wolf rhetoric to me - hehehehe

But of course wolves could kill people - I can tell you that I have been fortunate enough to see wolves when I was hiking solo in the back country - and what went through my mind was not "there's never been anyone killed by wolves in the U.S." Nope - it was more like "I need to get out of here!!!!" But that is just it - I always tell my wife if I get eaten by a bear or wolf or mountain lion when I am in THEIR backyard then that is MY fault and not theirs. Now when we start having the wild animals stalk the streets of the cities and kill people then we should do away with them! ..... but don't people already stalk those streets and kill people?? Kind of funny that we don't kill ALL of us people just because some go kill right? But most people are ready to throw out every wolf on the face of the earth just because one attacks. Anyway, just think if we could all have a bit of tolerance for others of God's creatures we could make this a better place.

Much peace and love.

JS

[gonefishin]

JS: As you know my point was never really about wolves attacking people: it was that there is a universal law that says for everything positive there is a negative. The point I was trying to make was there has to be and is a middle ground. The introduction or re-introduction of large predators without properly educating people how to deal with them is very risky business. Allowing fires to burn un-abated because all of the damage is good for the enviroment is not a good policy either. The good has to be equally weighed against the bad and then appropiate action taken. Like Ron said there is no middle ground with the greeners. For them it is all "my way or the highway." Last I checked there was nothing wrong with a little bit of compramise.