Mdc Enforcement Issues

[eric1978]

From what I have seen floating over here, more and more landowners are limiting cattle in the streams. And using a very low cost solution. Less than a half dozen T-post and some used cattle panels. This was one of the ideas I was hoping the MSA would possibly adopt and implement when we had discussions a year or so ago. It is a great all around win win for everyone. The land owner provides the materials and the MSA provides the labor. A couple of hours or so and done.

Until some trespassers cause a stampede and the cattle plow right through it.

[bigredbirdfan]

There has been a huge change in our eating habits. Beef, pork and chicken is in such abundence and so cheap, it would cost you more to eat wild game. And you are exactly right, we don't need to eat wildlife as we once did. I do because I enjoy all aspects of it and to pass on the traditions of yester year on to my youngings.

If people don't need to eat wild game then why does the Share Your Harvest program distribute over 300,000 lbs of deer meat each year?

[Tim Smith]

Now we are getting into an aspect of modern game regulations that concerns me most.

We now have different regulations on almost every water, and different regulations on particular species within those water, and different combination creel limits on related species, and different regulations on various stretches of those waters, and regulations on keeping each person's catch on a separate stringer, and on and on. Hunting has become just as complicated, and requires that you take a class before even getting a license.

To be an outdoorsman, we are required to have a dozen or more licences, stamps, special permits and so forth. This is just in one state. Every state has their own particular set of licenses and regulations, and the fees for all these particular pastimes have escalated.

It has become like the tax code: added to and expanded to the point where one needs to be a lawyer to hunt and fish legally. It is part of my business to know these rules and regulations, but I'll openly admit that I can't keep up with them any more, and much of the time when I'm outdoors, in the back of my mind is the nagging concern that I might inadvertently be doing something wrong. That bothers me, because I began my outdoor pursuits 50-something years ago with a great respect for game laws and an understanding of the long-range benefit of these laws upon the health of the species and the quality of my sport.

What concerns me is not so much my ability to remain a law-abiding outdoorsman, but the ironic and insidious effect all these complicated rules and regulations are having upon the future of hunting and fishing in this nation. When I was a kid, the license were so cheap, and the rules so simple, that even a poor student like me could escape from the regiments and demands of school to participate in the profound pleasures of the outdoors with one license in my pocket and one, simple number in mind that governed how many fish or animals I could harvest.

It was a pure and profound retreat from a demanding society, and I’m afraid that for kids today, the whole thing looks like more of the same over-regulated and confusing jumble of controls most of them rebel against at some point of puberty. The truth is, I’m getting to where I enjoy hiking and photography more than hunting and fishing these days as an escape from societal rules.

There is no doubt that all the rules and regulations (lobbied for by sportsmen, myself included), and backed by scientific studies we funded, have improved the quality and the quantity of fish and game, but what has this done to the attractiveness of the related pastimes?

The entire future of these pastimes are in the hands of future generations of hunters and fishermen, and they’re just not interested. I think it has simply become too much trouble, with too many rules and regulations, bureaucratic oversight, red tape and expense. It no longer looks like an escape, so most kids just play computer games to get away from it all. This is the Computer Game Generation.

As conscientious and knowledgeable sportsmen die off, the future of fish and game management will increasingly fall under the political influence of people with a Disney idea of husbandry–and that doesn’t require any funding.

This one is a big can of worms that connects this issue to some of the central issues of our day.

We've moved beyond the days of Daniel Boone. Laws are complicated because keeping the resource intact has gotten complicated. As Chief argues above, we have gotten back a reasonable return on our investment through improved fisheries. But the options for an unfettered retreat to unfettered simplicity are substantially reduced. There are enough of us now and we have such huge technical capacity that without self imposed limits there simply won't be a resource left for us to enjoy.

It may be that some of these regulations could be scaled back, but the overall trend toward more regulations is not going to go away soon. I think you frame the urge to rebel against the current realities and responsibilities in exactly the right context...adolescent immaturity.

Yes we need democratic control over policies. Yes, we need outlets for frustration. But we also need to face the fact that our reality is a complicated world with more people and more impacts than we have ever had. We do need to keep laws as unobtrusive as possible. We need to find ways to simplify what we have and guide free markets to do the jobs that regulators are doing now. But ultimately we must have limits unless we're willing to settle for a hugely degraded resource.

The way forward clearly seems to be to cultivate a more conscientious outdoor demographic.

I think we're all better off if the ones who can't accept limits decide to stay in town.

[Tim Smith]

If people don't need to eat wild game then why does the Share Your Harvest program distribute over 300,000 lbs of deer meat each year?

That meat didn't have to come from game. Good for the hunters for sharing, but agriculturists were willing to share, could ante up far more than that with much less effort.

[Tim Smith]

I agree with most of what you say, Tim. But my point is that unless young people are attracted, within a generation or two, most everyone will be "staying in town." I was a champion of more regulation for decades.

We're mostly on the same page I think, Ron. I honor your conservation approach and I appreciate most of what I've seen you post in here.

I just question whether regulations are a major cause for declines in fishing and I would argue that we're all better off if we can promote the sport among people who have the maturity to learn the regulations and the reasons they are there.

Are we really stuck with the bottom of the barrel people who approach the sport from a selfish perspective? Will our demographic always be people who are prone to go off on public tirades about the MDC if they don't get everything they want? I don't think we are stuck there but we do need people to think and take responsibility. We need that among the populace as a whole on just about every issue we face in life. There's a reservoir of frustration out there because life has gotten complex. But as a whole we simply are going to have to cope with these things. We need limits. We need the MDC.

While we're at it, I also question just how much fishing is declining in terms of total effort. If it is declining, is that necessarily a bad thing?

I'm sure there are those monitoring the profits of the sport fishing industry who would like to pack us onto the streams like sardines. I'm pretty sure that's a pretty destructive approach.

[Feathers and Fins]

Wow Tim, talk about a massive subject of why people are not doing or participating in!

I have seen a decline in many activities not just fishing and hunting, but also in youth bowling leagues and football and baseball. Really most out of home activities participation seems to have decreased.

The cause’s of are numerous but a few of the major causes as I have seen are:

1. Divorce, this causes the parents to work harder to support themselves and the kids leaving less free time available and what free time is available the activities done are ones where less money is required.
   
2. Video Games, kids have just gotten lazy and parents even if not divorced are working longer and further from home just to make ends meet which goes back to financial feasibility of the entertainment they can afford.
   
3. Access, when I was a kid we had plenty of places to hunt and fish and participate in sporting events. Now we have more and more land under private control restricting people’s ability to participate in the outdoors.
   
4. 
   

I am certain many of us could list more reason why. I have taken many a youth hunting and fishing to introduce them to the outdoors. The problem is I am not their parent and shouldn’t be the one teaching them. Parents like it certainly as it gives them a free babysitter for a day. But if the child shows interest it is the parent’s job or IMO should be to then take them and spend the time with them.

[Chief Grey Bear]

Until some trespassers cause a stampede and the cattle plow right through it.

I seem to recall something about this. Although my memory at the time was very foggy.

If people don't need to eat wild game then why does the Share Your Harvest program distribute over 300,000 lbs of deer meat each year?

\

Share the Harvest was started for hunters that hunt for the pure enjoyment of hunting. It created an avenue for them to legally dispose of the meat. No family will starve if this program ceased to exist.

I agree with most of what you say, Tim. But my point is that unless young people are attracted, within a generation or two, most everyone will be "staying in town." I was a champion of more regulation for decades.

I think Missouri is on the lucky end of this trend currently. I had read that we and one other state(which escapes me at the moment) are actually recuiting more hunters than we are loosing. I want to say it was something along the lines of for every 100 we lost, 116 filled their shoes.

[Feathers and Fins]

Hey Ron, Good point... and a video to lend some thought to it

http://youtu.be/xi3GgoLtlWk

[Chief Grey Bear]

Tim, I think the biggest decline, and the one that bothers me, is concerning young people comming along to take our place. From a personal perspective, I think there are far too many people participating in general. I'd like to have it all to myself, but the looming problem I see, is as we die off, who is going to carry the mantle of sound conservation practices? How much political and finanacial support will the MDC, and consumptive outdoorsmen in general, recieve from PETA and other groups of that ilk?

I also think the MDC should be doing more to address this trend, because one of the first things such groups would do is have the sales tax repealed. I even wonder, if it came up for another vote, if the earmarked tax would pass today?

The vast majority of people today have a Disney idea of the wilds, and many of them see the various conservaton departments as agencies that raise fish and animlals for our bloodthursty and primitive desires. Fishing and hunting is better today because of the political and financial support we old timers provided in numbers. That continues today, but who will take our place?

Hey Ron, check out the MDC Facebook page from time to time. I have been pleasantly surpised by the amount of non-hunters and non-fishermen people that pop on just to say thanks and what a great job they are doing. The people that you read doing the most complaining against the MDC is those that hunt and fish. Go figure.

[Justin Spencer]

Hey Ron, Good point... and a video to lend some thought to it

Why do you want to make a grown man cry. The possum does it to me everytime!