Smallmouth Issues/msa Meeting

[MoSportsmen]

One little thing to add to the city mouse country mouse argument. All you have to do is look at the minutes of a few MDC commision meetings. Look at where 90% of habitual violaters with revoked priveledges are from. nuff said.

Tom

[Al Agnew]

Well I have spent quite a bit of time this evening running through most of threads we had back then talking smallmouth. HOLY COW, do we have pages and pages and pages of that.

At any rate I think it went something like this;

Smallmouth Bass on unimpounded waters, All smallmouth between 13-18 inches must be released immediately unharmed. Only 4 smallmouth less than 13 inches and only 1 over 18 inches may be in possession. Except: On unimpounded waters west of Hwy 65 and south of Interstate 44 all smallmouth between 12-15 inches must be released immediately unharmed. Only 4 smallmouth less than 12inches and 1 over 15 inches may be in possession.

Between Nov.1 and May 31 no black bass may be in possession while on unimpounded waters.

Chief, I think I'd still be very okay with that...except I think we're overlooking the other bass species. If those were the slot limits on smallies, what would we do about largemouth and spots? That could end up with more smallmouth harvest than we have now. Under the six fish 12 inch limit, in many streams--including those you fish, I think--half or more of the legal fish you catch are not smallies. I've been guilty of this thinking in my previous posts here, too. If the slot limits apply only to smallmouth, at present you might end up keeping 3 smallies (along with 3 spots/largemouth) over 12 inches, but under a smallmouth slot you could keep five smallmouth, along with whatever the limits were on the others.

I'm curious as to what you think about this. I'm also curious as to what you'd think about that same slot applying to all bass species on your rivers. On my rivers, applying the slot to all species would mean about equal chances of catching all three species under the slot, but you'd probably VERY seldom catch a spotted bass over the slot, and you'd be slightly more likely to catch largemouth over the slot than smallmouth. I think maybe it would favor spotted bass the most, and largemouth the least. I'm thinking, just offhand, that I'd want the slot to apply to smallmouth and largemouth but not spotted bass in the Meramec and Gasconade systems, but would have no problem with it applying to all three species in the south flowing streams where spotted bass are native.

[Trout Commander]

Maybe if you actually kept an open mind about "these people" who live "deep in the woods" and are "cemented in tradition" you would know that a lot of them actually do care about conservation, and that most of them are not ignorant back-woods hicks who have to be treated like children. I am in support of the tightest practicable smallmouth regs, but I am not in support of your stereotypical way of looking at people who live in remote areas of the Ozarks. I have friends in places like Eminence and Winona, family "deep in the woods" of southeast Missouri, and most of them just aren't like what you describe.

I now live right in the middle of a town of nearly 100,000 people. And my favorite smallmouth stream is being trashed by city folk, trashed much worse than any Ozark creek is being by some old-timer bait fisherman who keeps a limit. So yes, city folk can be just as bad or worse in their conservation ethics than people in remote areas. And they often are.

Having spent the first 18 years of my life in such a community very near the Big Piney and close to the Gasconade and fishing them more often than most, i totally, 100% agree with Eric. On the other side of that coin, I will say it is a generalization and that I am not accusing your family and friends of of being said Hoosiers. There are those of us from/in these such areas that are not Hoosiers, Unfortunately we are the inverse of a much larger population.

[BackCastingGolfer]

I’ve spent half my life in a big city and half in very rural settings, and I've listened as objectively as possible. Both sides stereotype the other without much real knowledge of the cultures they bemoan, and they always base these stereotype upon the worst case scenarios. It is counter-productive and ill-informed.

I think the important aspect being overlooked, is not the origin of the angler but his experience. Releasing fish unharmed is something very few people do at first. Most grow into it after advancing through various stages.

The biggest part of keeping fish, especially big fish, is to show off. This is very important in hill country, where part of a man’s reputation is based upon his fishing and hunting abilities, but this macho manifestation is not limited to rural people. I’ve seen a lot of otherwise sophisticated urbanites who want to fill their walls with fish and game and bring home a cooler full of fillets to feed the whole neighborhood and be the undisputed outdoor expert of the apartment complex.

Now, that doesn’t include most of the members of this site, and especially the readers of this thread, but believe me, you are a minuscule minority, and I’ve heard the same complaints from rural conservation-minded people about how city people are over-fishing local waters.

Truth is, far more city people hunt and fish for show than country people who fish to eat, and another sad fact, is some of them really need to do that.

When I started guiding on Kentucky Lake, I became concerned with the number of good bass I saw being taken out and slaughtered by all the clients of good guides, myself included. None of these people were “rednecks.”

After my first year, I started offering a special deal: If someone would release any big bass they caught, I would provide them with professional quality prints of the capture and release. Often we kept fish alive in my live wells and at the end of the day, took pics of numerous big bass and then released them. They had their proof. It was much cheaper than a mount and lasted much longer than a bowel movement.

From that time on, which included another seven or eight years, I had only two clients keep a big bass out of the hundreds caught; both of them were close to 10 pounds and probably wouldn’t have survived another year anyway. I offer the same deal on my smallmouth trips on the Black and Current rivers today, except that the entire trips is chronicled if all bass are released.

Now, having lived on both sides of this issue, I can tell you with complete honesty what bothers me most. It also is the thing that gives city people the worst reputation of all: People whose primary reasons to go outdoors is to party in a lawless environment. They are loud, rude, inconsiderate, and I assure you that all of the litter smaller than a tire that we put in Stream Team bags comes from these slobs. They float in groups, with separate tubes for booze. They splash and yell and bang canoes and tip each other over, and all their junk and empty cans go floating along like the aftermath of a bomb.

This kind of thing really makes a local’s face and neck red. In fact, I don’t book float trips on the weekends to avoid showing paying customers such embarrassing scenes, and to keep my blood pressure in check.

And this is the stereotypical image most rural people place on all city people.

Is that fair?

Not at all, I grew up on the Spring River in NE Arkansas, and I hardly ever fished in the summer for this very reason. Drunk morons floating right in the hole/riffle you are working, then have the stones to ask if you're having any luck...

[MoJohn]

Al and Chief I seem to recall along with the 4 smallie limit there was some what of a 6 total bass possesion limit too. So if someone had caught 4 smallies they would only be allowed two other bass in total. I went back thru old threads myself but couldn't find it.

I got a survey that I believe was part of that 70% that thought tighter regs were in order but I never indicated that total C&R was what I wanted. I rarely target smallies as my goal when fishing. I have on occation and caught a couple in the 3lb. range on the James. I think smallies taste nasty and would never keep them to eat, however my 93 year old grandpa loves them. The few times a year he is actually able to go fishing an catches a keeper I believe he should be able too.

I rarely get involved in these due to the fact that they never really change anyones opinion and most can't even agree to disagree, kinda like the CCW issues. and I seem to recall "There are so many people who are totally incapable of or resistant to education and change, and those people are gonna have to be brought with us on leashes, kicking and screaming, to the new world." being somewhat close to a favorite statement of PETA.

[Trout Commander]

I’ve spent half my life in a big city and half in very rural settings, and I've listened as objectively as possible. Both sides stereotype the other without much real knowledge of the cultures they bemoan, and they always base these stereotype upon the worst case scenarios. It is counter-productive and ill-informed.

I think the important aspect being overlooked, is not the origin of the angler but his experience. Releasing fish unharmed is something very few people do at first. Most grow into it after advancing through various stages.

The biggest part of keeping fish, especially big fish, is to show off. This is very important in hill country, where part of a man’s reputation is based upon his fishing and hunting abilities, but this macho manifestation is not limited to rural people. I’ve seen a lot of otherwise sophisticated urbanites who want to fill their walls with fish and game and bring home a cooler full of fillets to feed the whole neighborhood and be the undisputed outdoor expert of the apartment complex.

Now, that doesn’t include most of the members of this site, and especially the readers of this thread, but believe me, you are a minuscule minority, and I’ve heard the same complaints from rural conservation-minded people about how city people are over-fishing local waters.

Truth is, far more city people hunt and fish for show than country people who fish to eat, and another sad fact, is some of them really need to do that.

When I started guiding on Kentucky Lake, I became concerned with the number of good bass I saw being taken out and slaughtered by all the clients of good guides, myself included. None of these people were “rednecks.”

After my first year, I started offering a special deal: If someone would release any big bass they caught, I would provide them with professional quality prints of the capture and release. Often we kept fish alive in my live wells and at the end of the day, took pics of numerous big bass and then released them. They had their proof. It was much cheaper than a mount and lasted much longer than a bowel movement.

From that time on, which included another seven or eight years, I had only two clients keep a big bass out of the hundreds caught; both of them were close to 10 pounds and probably wouldn’t have survived another year anyway. I offer the same deal on my smallmouth trips on the Black and Current rivers today, except that the entire trips is chronicled if all bass are released.

Now, having lived on both sides of this issue, I can tell you with complete honesty what bothers me most. It also is the thing that gives city people the worst reputation of all: People whose primary reasons to go outdoors is to party in a lawless environment. They are loud, rude, inconsiderate, and I assure you that all of the litter smaller than a tire that we put in Stream Team bags comes from these slobs. They float in groups, with separate tubes for booze. They splash and yell and bang canoes and tip each other over, and all their junk and empty cans go floating along like the aftermath of a bomb.

This kind of thing really makes a local’s face and neck red. In fact, I don’t book float trips on the weekends to avoid showing paying customers such embarrassing scenes, and to keep my blood pressure in check.

And this is the stereotypical image most rural people place on all city people.

Is that fair?

:picks jaw up from the floor:

Are you kidding me, Ron Kruger?!

As a guide, you of all people should want to conserve this resource at all costs. The fact that you have the power to guide and profit from strictly c&r anglers only and choose not to is frankly appalling. By giving people free photographs for releasing the smallies you acknowledge that the fish have value and by not making releases mandatory on your trips you tell the world that the value of those fish is less than the buck you make on your guide trips.

I know I will get bashed for this post because what Ron does is legal. I know it is legal, but it is not ethical.

[joeD]

Good frigging grief. The amount of studies that our Ozarks streams have had to endure without any policy change is ridiculous. How long have we been picking at this smallmouth scab? The solution is so obvious, its not funny. But, given our current social and political climate, it is more important not to "offend" certain people than it is to actually use common sense and use facts to act accordingly.

1. Recognize smallmouth in Missouri streams as a sportfish, not to be harvested. Yes. NOT to be harvested.

2. That's it. Smallmouth bass are to be put back in EVERY stream in Missouri. There is absolutely no evidence that smallmouth bass are overcrowding any particular stream.

3. The ONLY reason why there are no, or few, large fish (15, or 17, inches and above) in streams that can produce them, is predation by the local fishing populace. Period.

4. That's right. LOCAL. LOCAL. LOCAL. Visiting fishermen from the "big" cities do absolutely NOTHING in contributing to the demise of larger fish in our Ozark streams.

5. I don't care.

6. I'll give you an example. Let's say your favorite stretch of river is the Meramec from point A to point B. 10 miles. You can keep a smallie of 15 (or 18) inches. So you do. In that same week in that same stretch, there are 5 other trips of 2 fishermen each that catch and keep legal smallmouth. The same thing happens the next week. And the next week. And the next week. Oh, and we have repeats from the first week. More people taking their legal limit of smallmouth. All season. It is their right. The following year we have the same behavior. Fishermen can legally keep a 15 or 18 inch smallie from this particular stretch of river. And they do. Week after week.

7. In the third year of "our" study, we find that catch rates for keeper fish are down. In fact, everyone is complaining that the fishing sucks. Something must be done.

8. Creel limits!! Why didn't we think of this before??!! You did. Doesn't work for smallies in Ozark streams.

9. Let's sum up.

9. The idea that taking a certain number of fish out of a finite population and area will lead to "better" fishing due to "less" competition and will produce bigger fish is complete nonsense. It will just lead to less fish.

4. We could talk to the end of time about the negative environmental effects of human industry on fishing populations, many true, BUT, in terms of our Ozark streams, the REAL reason we don't have great fishing on OUR streams is the "local" population of fishermen who catch and keep smallmouth bass without regard to rules or regulations. They don't care. Again. THEY DON'T CARE. Make any rule you want, IT WILL BE IGNORED.

9. Solution?

10. Catching and keeping smallmouth bass must become socially unacceptable for those who do it. It's seems Pollyanna, but it is true. Social and group behavior change must come from within, not dictated from governmental authority. Yes, it is up to US, the citizens, the fishermen, to make catching and keeping smallmouth bass in Ozark streams something that will have a negative social consequence.

32. since I can't stop typing and don't know what i'm doing, it seems the shark population should be robust, what, with all the little guys getting yanked out of the ocean by the japanese , the number of BIG sharks should EXPLODE! Shark fin soup DELUXE! Those male elderly Asians should be the size of John Holmes by now, since they've already decimated the tiger and elephant populations.

*. I don't care.

[Chief Grey Bear]

Al and Chief I seem to recall along with the 4 smallie limit there was some what of a 6 total bass possesion limit too. So if someone had caught 4 smallies they would only be allowed two other bass in total. I went back thru old threads myself but couldn't find it.

Chief, I think I'd still be very okay with that...except I think we're overlooking the other bass species. If those were the slot limits on smallies, what would we do about largemouth and spots? That could end up with more smallmouth harvest than we have now. Under the six fish 12 inch limit, in many streams--including those you fish, I think--half or more of the legal fish you catch are not smallies. I've been guilty of this thinking in my previous posts here, too. If the slot limits apply only to smallmouth, at present you might end up keeping 3 smallies (along with 3 spots/largemouth) over 12 inches, but under a smallmouth slot you could keep five smallmouth, along with whatever the limits were on the others.

I'm curious as to what you think about this. I'm also curious as to what you'd think about that same slot applying to all bass species on your rivers. On my rivers, applying the slot to all species would mean about equal chances of catching all three species under the slot, but you'd probably VERY seldom catch a spotted bass over the slot, and you'd be slightly more likely to catch largemouth over the slot than smallmouth. I think maybe it would favor spotted bass the most, and largemouth the least. I'm thinking, just offhand, that I'd want the slot to apply to smallmouth and largemouth but not spotted bass in the Meramec and Gasconade systems, but would have no problem with it applying to all three species in the south flowing streams where spotted bass are native.

Ya know, I wouldn't be opposed to applying this to all Black bass. In fact I would like it even more. And I think you should keep your current Spotted bass special reg in your Meramec and Gascon systems, as long as we are not seeing a reduction in LM due to mis-identification.

I think you and MJ are right. We need to combine all three species in the slot so that the total coming out at any one time can not exceed 5 fish in any combination.

So how does this look:

Black Bass on unimpounded waters, All Black Bass between 13-18 inches must be released immediately unharmed. Only 4 Black Bass less than 13 inches and only 1 over 18 inches may be in possession. Except: On unimpounded waters west of Hwy 65 and south of Interstate 44 all Black Bass between 12-15 inches must be released immediately unharmed. Only 4 Black Bass less than 12inches and 1 over 15 inches may be in possession.

Between Nov.1 and May 31 no black bass may be in possession while on unimpounded waters.

[jdmidwest]

You forgot over predation by otters that were introduced by the MDC a few years ago for fish control.

Good frigging grief. The amount of studies that our Ozarks streams have had to endure without any policy change is ridiculous. How long have we been picking at this smallmouth scab? The solution is so obvious, its not funny. But, given our current social and political climate, it is more important not to "offend" certain people than it is to actually use common sense and use facts to act accordingly.

1. Recognize smallmouth in Missouri streams as a sportfish, not to be harvested. Yes. NOT to be harvested.

2. That's it. Smallmouth bass are to be put back in EVERY stream in Missouri. There is absolutely no evidence that smallmouth bass are overcrowding any particular stream.

3. The ONLY reason why there are no, or few, large fish (15, or 17, inches and above) in streams that can produce them, is predation by the local fishing populace. Period.

4. That's right. LOCAL. LOCAL. LOCAL. Visiting fishermen from the "big" cities do absolutely NOTHING in contributing to the demise of larger fish in our Ozark streams.

5. I don't care.

6. I'll give you an example. Let's say your favorite stretch of river is the Meramec from point A to point B. 10 miles. You can keep a smallie of 15 (or 18) inches. So you do. In that same week in that same stretch, there are 5 other trips of 2 fishermen each that catch and keep legal smallmouth. The same thing happens the next week. And the next week. And the next week. Oh, and we have repeats from the first week. More people taking their legal limit of smallmouth. All season. It is their right. The following year we have the same behavior. Fishermen can legally keep a 15 or 18 inch smallie from this particular stretch of river. And they do. Week after week.

7. In the third year of "our" study, we find that catch rates for keeper fish are down. In fact, everyone is complaining that the fishing sucks. Something must be done.

8. Creel limits!! Why didn't we think of this before??!! You did. Doesn't work for smallies in Ozark streams.

9. Let's sum up.

9. The idea that taking a certain number of fish out of a finite population and area will lead to "better" fishing due to "less" competition and will produce bigger fish is complete nonsense. It will just lead to less fish.

4. We could talk to the end of time about the negative environmental effects of human industry on fishing populations, many true, BUT, in terms of our Ozark streams, the REAL reason we don't have great fishing on OUR streams is the "local" population of fishermen who catch and keep smallmouth bass without regard to rules or regulations. They don't care. Again. THEY DON'T CARE. Make any rule you want, IT WILL BE IGNORED.

9. Solution?

10. Catching and keeping smallmouth bass must become socially unacceptable for those who do it. It's seems Pollyanna, but it is true. Social and group behavior change must come from within, not dictated from governmental authority. Yes, it is up to US, the citizens, the fishermen, to make catching and keeping smallmouth bass in Ozark streams something that will have a negative social consequence.

32. since I can't stop typing and don't know what i'm doing, it seems the shark population should be robust, what, with all the little guys getting yanked out of the ocean by the japanese , the number of BIG sharks should EXPLODE! Shark fin soup DELUXE! Those male elderly Asians should be the size of John Holmes by now, since they've already decimated the tiger and elephant populations.

*. I don't care.

[Wayne SW/MO]

You forgot over predation by otters that were introduced by the MDC a few years ago for fish control.

Reintroduced. They were here before man silted up the streams, degraded the water quality, and overfished areas and the smallies did fine.

I fished a great smallmouth river for years that had a good population of otters and the fishing didn't suffer. That river had one thing that the rivers here don't have, it was remote from man.