Drought?

[Wayne SW/MO]

By the way, there is currently a bill in the Colorado legislature (introduced by Mark Udall, Democrat) to subsidize the mitigation of beetle killed trees (primarily by cutting them down). I'm curious why these supposedly highly valuable trees the logging industry gladly would have taken off our hands suddenly needs a 200 million dollar subsidy to harvest....

I would say that's a good question Tim, but then I'm a skeptic when it comes to subsidies. I understand when they keep a necessary industry afloat, and can't argue against their beginning. AG subsidies are a good example. As far as salvaging CO's beetle kill, I might speculate there are no mills equipped to do it? Or maybe it's more of the government payoff that is so rampant, IMO, nowadays.

You didn't answer the question of whether the CO fires could have been less destructive if planned thinning had taken place.

I think you're right Al that the multiple use mandate is unrealistic as practiced. I've never been a supporter of wholesale logging or the Wilderness or none approach. I think some logging can be useful in second and third growth forest, if it benefits the forest overall. I think in some instances carefully planned access to large tracts that are designated in such a way that road and trails are carefully planned would be a plus and held for the purpose of . Most access into the western forest are via roads built by loggers. The biggest problem I've seen is still the Forest Services constant change in policy. They also were very top heavy when I was in a position to observe them. A good and almost comical example is when they had loggers remove the old dead trees that had fallen in streams as part of the contract, then found it was another mistake and had them putting logs back in the stream. They allowed cutting to close to streams for awhile and didn't leave enough riparian vegetation. They allowed clear cutting and then reversed. They have started forest fires when they doing controlled burns. Not a great record for an agency that is 136 years old.

They may need to look for new wilderness areas because of all the fires. They are generally lost in a fire because they don't fight fires in them, with the exception of small ones the smoke jumpers can handle.

[Tim Smith]

I would say that's a good question Tim, but then I'm a skeptic when it comes to subsidies. I understand when they keep a necessary industry afloat, and can't argue against their beginning. AG subsidies are a good example. As far as salvaging CO's beetle kill, I might speculate there are no mills equipped to do it? Or maybe it's more of the government payoff that is so rampant, IMO, nowadays.

You didn't answer the question of whether the CO fires could have been less destructive if planned thinning had taken place.

I think you're right Al that the multiple use mandate is unrealistic as practiced. I've never been a supporter of wholesale logging or the Wilderness or none approach. I think some logging can be useful in second and third growth forest, if it benefits the forest overall. I think in some instances carefully planned access to large tracts that are designated in such a way that road and trails are carefully planned would be a plus and held for the purpose of . Most access into the western forest are via roads built by loggers. The biggest problem I've seen is still the Forest Services constant change in policy. They also were very top heavy when I was in a position to observe them. A good and almost comical example is when they had loggers remove the old dead trees that had fallen in streams as part of the contract, then found it was another mistake and had them putting logs back in the stream. They allowed cutting to close to streams for awhile and didn't leave enough riparian vegetation. They allowed clear cutting and then reversed. They have started forest fires when they doing controlled burns. Not a great record for an agency that is 136 years old.

They may need to look for new wilderness areas because of all the fires. They are generally lost in a fire because they don't fight fires in them, with the exception of small ones the smoke jumpers can handle.

It appears most of these logs are going to be burned rather than milled. They're not as valuable as fuel as they would have been as lumber. I assume if you have access to lumber-ready beetle kill, you would be in a great position to make profits now.

As for changes in policy changes, it's important to realize how rapidly the nation and forestry and the environmental sciences have evolved during this time. The population of the nation has increased by an order of magnitude this time. Forestry has gone from a completely harvest oriented trade with no concept of conservation to a data driven multi-user management practice trying to stave off multiple pressures.

Forests take a long time to grow and it takes a long time to collect enough data to understand how they work. The transformation over the last 30 years has been nothing less than astonishing. Go to the professional journals from the 40s and compare them to the ones we have now. It's like comparing stone tools and laser technology.

And Wayne, I assume that if thinning were allowed to occur, yes, it would have reduced fire danger. I'm not how sure how much difference it would have made if the Forest Service had opened more acres to thinning if, as you say, selective harvest is not profitable. Given that total production has still been increasing, the industry has apparently found enough people willing harvest their own wood to meet demand. More production would have driven prices lower and reduced to incentive to thin public lands.

[Wayne SW/MO]

The only thing I know about selective harvest was what I learned in the 90's. At that time the added expense of harvesting timber in that manner drove the bids down. The mills couldn't afford to take the hit because not all the competition was cutting FS timber. The mill I worked at had built what it called a small log mill, heavily computerized, to process logs that the FS was going to make available from thinning. But it didn't take 10 years until they changed course and all but stopped all cutting. Sadly in order to keep working the company cut their own holdings of old growth before they closed. I saw at least one Pondorosa log that had to have 8 or 10" shaved off the side by hand to get it through the head rig, the head rig could take a 36" log.

[jdmidwest]

If the drought keeps up around here, we are going to have a timber kill. Driving thru Perry and St. Gen counties today, I noticed several trees turning brown and loosing leaves already. That thin soil does not hold much moisture.

My poplars started turning yellow and dropping leaves like fall here this week. Pin Oaks are being attacked by Jap Beetles.

[Wayne SW/MO]

My walnuts are yellowing and starting to drop leaves.

[Tim Smith]

Fire one ridge over from the city of Boulder CO, today. 20 evacuations and 2,400 pre-evacuation orders issued. First learned about this fire when I saw the smoke from it floating over Denver. South Boulder is on the list to be evacuated, including a large NOAA research facility.

The High Park fire has now destroyed 257 homes and cost 31 million in damage with 55% containment. It is now bigger than the Hayman fire which destroyed much of the headwaters above Cheeseman Reservoir on the South Platte.

9,000 people still evacuated in Colorado Springs for the Waldo Canyon fire which is now 5% contained.

Multiple consecutive days above 100F have made progress impossible and spot fires are becoming common. High tomorrow projected in the high 90s.

I can now see smoke from three major fires burning from where I live.

Woke up this morning to a house that smelled like a campfire.

Was about to grill some chicken yesterday and thought I'd better check for fire bans. No charcoal grilling is allowed with fines up to 1000 dollars.

Fireworks (except professional, permitted shows) are banned. Campfires are banned, even in fire rings.

[jdmidwest]

Professional, permitted fireworks shows are being postponed around here because of the no burn restrictions. Several towns announced this week they are not going to have a show. MDC posted a fireworks warning also.

Temps of 105 this weekend, no chance of any rain in the forecast for the coming week. Humidity is low, so low that the water outflow from my AC does not even make a wet spot in the yard.

Good news, I saw a Mosquito evaporate in mid air yesterday. They have not been a problem around here. No grass for them to hide in.

[Quillback]

The authorities still have not issued a fireworks ban here in NWA. Like JD is seeing, small oaks are dying, and the underbrush is turning brown in places. With no relief is sight I can't understand why no fireworks ban. Fireworks stands are still open also so folks will be buying fireworks and once bought they're going to want to set them off.

[Tim Smith]

As bad as these mountain fires are, I can't imagine how bad an eastern deciduous forest fire would be under dry conditions...incredible amounts of fuel.

The Waldo Canyon fire entered Colorado Springs last night and is burning down a neighborhood.

The National Air Force Academy there is under an evacuation order.

[ness]

That Waldo Canyon fire is a bad one. I've got two (second) cousins out there -- one in Colorado Springs and one staying at a generations-old family cabin in Cascade. They've both evacuated. The first one's got a business in NW CS not too far from where they live: http://www.wybron.com/

It's heartbreaking.