This Concerns The Plannet

[Outside Bend]

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jamestaylor/2012/09/19/antarctic-sea-ice-sets-another-record/

While sea ice may be growing, the article omits that ice sheets on Antarctic continent itself are shrinking. It all depends on what you choose look at.

[Jerry Rapp]

and now for a little chuckle (at least for me)

HEADLINES FROM THE YEAR: 2059

Ozone created by electric cars now killing millions in the seventh largest country in the world, Mexifornia, formerly known as California .

White minorities still trying to have English recognized as Mexifornia's third language.

Spotted Owl plague threatens northwestern United States crops and livestock.

Baby conceived naturally! Scientists stumped.

Couple petitions court to reinstate heterosexual marriage.

Iran still closed off; physicists estimate it will take at least 10 more years before radioactivity decreases to safe levels.

France pleads for global help after being taken over by Jamaica . No other country comes forward to help the beleaguered nation!

Castro finally dies at age 112; Cuban cigars can now be imported legally, but President Chelsea Clinton has banned all smoking.

George Z. Bush says he will run for President in 2060.

Postal Service raises price of first class stamp to $17.89 and reduces mail delivery to Wednesdays only.

85-year $75.8 billion study: Diet and exercise is the key to weight loss.

Average weight of Americans drops to 250 lbs.

Global cooling blamed for citrus crop failure for third consecutive year in Mexifornia and Floruba.

Japanese scientists have created a camera with such a fast shutter speed they now can photograph a woman with her mouth shut.

Abortion clinics now available in every High School in United States .

Senate still blocking drilling in ANWR even though gas is selling for 4532 Pesos per liter and gas stations are only open on Tuesdays and Fridays.

Massachusetts executes last remaining conservative.

Supreme Court rules punishment of criminals violates their civil rights.

A Couple Finally Had Sexual Harmony, They Had simultaneous Headaches.

Average height of NBA players is now nine feet seven inches with Only 3 illegitimate children.

New federal law requires that all nail clippers, screwdrivers, fly swatters and rolled-up newspapers must be registered by January 2060..

IRS sets lowest tax rate at 75 percent..

Floruba voters still having trouble with voting machines.

I Love This Country!

It's The Government That Scares Me! Stop organized crime. Re-elect no one.

[gotmuddy]

From the article:

"Warm conditions during the middle Miocene are thought to be associated with carbon dioxide levels of around 400 to 600 parts per million (ppm). In 2012, carbon dioxide levels have climbed to 393 ppm, the highest they've been in the past several million years. At the current rate of increase, atmospheric carbon dioxide levels are on track to reach middle Miocene levels by the end of this century."

The article isn't dismissing current climate change, it's corroborating current climate change- Greenland warmed then, as it is warming now, due to higher atmospheric CO2.

were SUV's and cow farts to blame then as they are now?

[Outside Bend]

were SUV's and cow farts to blame then as they are now?

No Gotmuddy, episodes of mountain building, volcanism, and other factors played a role- factors which don't explain the climate shift we're currently experiencing.

The one that does is pretty simple: the CO2 present in the Miocene atmosphere was eventually sequestered in formations of coal, natural gas, oil, peat, limestone, fossilized dino turds, and other carbon-bearing deposits. The reduction in atmospheric CO2 brought more moderate global temperatures- the climate our species adapted to. The stuff wasn't interacting with our atmosphere, until we dug it up and started burning it. The same chemical compound then seems to be the culprit today, how it's getting into the atmosphere makes no difference.

While it's all well and good that Greenland was warm 15 million years ago, we're only adapted to the climate of the last 200,000 years or so. We don't know what an ice-free Greenland means for our species, we don't know how it affects trade, agriculture, geopolitics....we don't know what it means for habitated areas such as sub-Saharan Africa, central Asia, Australia, the American Southwest, or even Missouri. But if we look at recent history- drought and wildfires in Russia which reduced grain exports to the Middle East, and subsequent food riots which sparked the Arab Spring- it likely won't be pretty.

Point is, I guess, it's about more than polar bears and cow farts.

[Al Agnew]

Just because it was warmer millions of years ago doesn't mean that warming is caused by the same factors that were present millions of years ago. And while no ONE extreme weather event can be directly tied to climate change, it's the frequency of extreme weather events that show the correlation. Extreme weather events are increasing, along with global temperatures.

Weather and climate are two different things. Just because the weatherman can't predict what the weather will be four weeks from now doesn't mean that climate scientists can't predict the trends and shifts in climate. Yeah, they can't predict that it will be 115 degrees for a high on August 1st, 2035 in St. Louis. They CAN predict that summers in the decade of the 2030s will be warmer on average than summers in the decade of the 2010s. There will always be outliers...much warmer than normal summers, much colder than normal winters, exceptionally hot days in May or cold days in October. But when the averages change over time, it's significant. They are changing. The difference between the climate right now and the climate in the middle of the last ice age is a matter of about 5-6 degrees F as a global average. What do you think another 3 degrees or so of average temperature rise will do to our climate?

While the hurricane that hit New Jersey can't be directly correlated to climate change, it's instructive. I've heard it said that global warming can be a good thing, making more land available for agriculture and more moderate climate in northern latitudes. But the incredible damage caused by just one rather minor hurricane to the coastline shows that any significant sea level rise is going to REALLY disrupt economies and cause civil and environmental disaster. It's going to cost an incredible amount of resources for human economies to adapt to a warmer climate, and that doesn't even address natural systems. Plants can't just pick up and move 150 miles north, or 1000 vertical feet up the mountainside, to keep themselves in the climate in which they evolved. Natural systems evolved in slow and moderate climate change or stable climatic conditions. When major climate change happens too fast, they crash, and it takes thousands or millions of years for them to reach a new equilibrium.

[Jerry Rapp]

with no disrespect Al, that post was total b.s., starting from the beginning. If a Cat 4 Hurricane had hit the Jersey Shores last summer, what would you be saying now? And a Cat 4 will go up the Jersey shore sometime, and probably take out the statue of liberty and all of of Manhatten at the same time. It is inevitable.

[jeb]

But Jeb- we know CO2 is a greenhouse, we know greenhouse gases increase atmosphere temperature, we know atmospheric CO2 played a role in many past climate shifts, we know the concentration of atmospheric CO2 is increasing today, and we know mean global temperature is increasing today.

I read your initial post, I understand your position that "science doesn't know it's wrong until it's wrong." All I'm saying is it doesn't take into account what we do know.

Yes, it does. CO2 is a tiny, tiny part of the overall atmosphere. There is still a lot of debate on how much it, in and of itself, has or can have any impact. Let alone how much it has really changed over millenia.

There is no solid evidence that the earth is not in a normal warming trend. There is only conjecture. There is more unknown about this branch of science than known, so it's ridiculous to run around crying that the sky is falling and throwing trillions of dollars at a problem we don't have, and can't affect. Have you looked at what impact the Koyoto treaty was predicted to have over this century on temps? Almost nothing. But it would have further crippled our economy, which is why Canada recently pulled out of it.

I remember reading in one article that it's possible the slightly higher warmer trend we are in can be blamed on cleaning up car exhauts, coal plants, etc. Taking all of that particulate matter out of the air allows more sunlight to penetrate. Something like that is much more believable, especially since worldwide temps have now stabilized. We were just catching up.

[jeb]

Just because it was warmer millions of years ago doesn't mean that warming is caused by the same factors that were present millions of years ago.

LOL! So we're just to ignore common sense, at least if it fits in with our religious views? I think the evidence of several ice ages, and some recent ones historically speaking, says your dismissal of extreme natural climate changes can be ignored.

They CAN predict that summers in the decade of the 2030s will be warmer on average than summers in the decade of the 2010s.

You have to be a true believer of the Church of the AGW alarmist to believe that. And you also have to ignore the fact that all the dire predictions have all been dead wrong so far. Just go look at how their poster boy Al Gore's predictions have worked out so far.

[Chief Grey Bear]

I remember reading in one article that it's possible the slightly higher warmer trend we are in can be blamed on cleaning up car exhauts, coal plants, etc. Taking all of that particulate matter out of the air allows more sunlight to penetrate. Something like that is much more believable, especially since worldwide temps have now stabilized. We were just catching up.

You do realize it was humans that took those particulates out of the ground to put in the atmosphere to take back out of the atmosphere?

So with that in mind, was the Earth on a cooling trend during the mini ice age of the 1300 to the mid 1800's? And then with new technology and the begining of massive use of fossile fuels, we humans changed the climate from a cooling trend to a warming trend?

Of course not. We have our marching orders.

[jeb]

You do realize it was humans that took those particulates out of the ground to put in the atmosphere to take back out of the atmosphere?

So with that in mind, was the Earth on a cooling trend during the mini ice age of the 1300 to the mid 1800's? And then with new technology and the begining of massive use of fossile fuels, we humans changed the climate from a cooling trend to a warming trend?

Of course not. We have our marching orders.

I didn't say I 100% agreed with the theory, only that it is a different take on it. But I think it's reasonable to say it could have had some impact, at least in the areas with a lot of pollution.

Again, the CO2 thing is far from settled science, no matter if the pollution levels of a few decades ago impacted temps or not.