Back to Paying to use the Parks

[Wayne SW/MO]

Things like this rub me hard. The people spent millions to control flood waters in SE Arkansas, and as a bonus got a power producing dam. There was never any mention of fees for recreation, in fact one of the selling points was the vast area of water recreation available for free.

It would seem that with pressures put on families today to find affordable recreation, in lieu of letting kids fend among their peers, charging for use of something already bought and paid for makes no sense.

[SilverMallard]

I'm with y'all on this, but here's the flip-side...

Hoodlums and ne'er-do-wells aren't going to pay the $4 entry fee just to spray graffiti on stuff and bust car windows and stuff like that. This is actually a BIG part of the gov't argument in favor of daily use fees: eliminated most criminal activity, making the park more attractive to law-abiding, peace-loving family-friendly recreation.

BUT...there is a Corps setback on these lakes! That WHOLE shoreline below the flood pool mark is PUBLIC ACCESS. This is a pretty well settled matter of littoral rights law. NO ONE...not even the freaking feds...can charge user fees for accessing that shoreline below the Corps line.

This is a power/money grab. And it needs to be stopped. I have no problem with charging $4 per car through the gate because it does have some common sense positive benefits. Those monies do go to direct maintenance within the district. And MOST fed rec properties are under-funded. Some are being scaled back or closed due to that. But there is simply no excuse for trying to harass folks who walk down the shore to fish or pull up in a boat for a shore lunch. That's just BS. Those folks are NOT there to cause trouble and they are not using the gates, parking areas, or ramps that are maintained by these revenues.

Just choose your battles wisely. I'd suggest going after the local policy of harassing the walk-ins and boaters ONLY using traditional littoral rights principles, and NOT going after the $4/car at the gates.

[Crippled Caddis]

Wayne wrote:

<There was never any mention of fees for recreation, in fact one of the selling points was the vast area of water recreation available for free.>

May I recommend the book, 'The River Killers' about the COE? While long out of print (copywrtten in 1975 IIRC) within the last couple of months Amazon had several used editions available as low as $3.??. Common COE tactics include institutionalized lying about cost/benefit ratios. EIS fudging and massive cost under-estimation. It is by far the most dishonest bureaucracy in the federal heirarchy. And whatever you do don't make the mistake of thinking of it as a department of the Army. While it is carried that way 'on the books' it has only a few hundred (if that!) actual Army personnel with the vast majority being civilian employees. It is a bureaucracy by any definition. And we should all know by now that the major goals of a bureaucracy, in order of importance, are:

1. increase funding

2. grow

3. and with luck the original goal for which it was established

An admission: While I've owned the book for over 20 years I've never read it from cover to cover. It simply makes me too angry and I'm forced to lay it aside out of concern for my blood pressure.

Note: My copy is currently on loan to Fox Statler. I hope he hasn't suffered apoplexy as a result.

[Wayne SW/MO]

CC I believe every bit of it, and I'm sure much hasn't been discovered.

On the surface however the indications were that Joe Public would benefit even if he didn't own a White River bottom cotton farm in SE Arkansas or live within the grid fed by the generators, that and the fact that the land was virtually worthless carried much of the argument that it was good for everybody.

[Ham]

Any good that comes from dealing with the COE is a fortunaye accident. I like the IRS better than the COE ; and I ain't a big fan of the IRS.

I have a hard time thinking of a govt agency that impacts fisherman as much as the COE does that has as little regard for fishery needs as the COE.

Terrible.

[SilverMallard]

USACE was chartered to dam and bridge rivers, drain swamps, build levees, and blow them all up again. It is part of the US Army because that was the point: national defense; and because that's where most of our civil engineers were: in the Army. It's an anacronysm that has WAY outlived its purpose and usefulness.

Today, the USACE is tasked with issuing the permit for all of these types of things. So all of our wetlands, lakes, and rivers are impacted by THEIR priorities. Their priorities put recreational uses LAST and natural resource conservation next to last. It's a classic case of the fox guarding the hen house. You put a guy whose life's ambition and training and work is all about building bridges, damming rivers, and blowing stuff up in charge of making sure we don't build too many bridges, dam too many rivers, or blow too much stuff up and you're gonna have "issues."

[Crippled Caddis]

SM wrote:

<It is part of the US Army because that was the point: national defense; and because that's where most of our civil engineers were>

And because it is carried that way 'on the book' it will never be reviewed by a sunset commission even though it should be obvious to the densest politician that it should come under the purview of the EPA.

<all of our wetlands, lakes, and rivers are impacted by THEIR priorities. Their priorities put recreational uses LAST and natural resource conservation next to last. It's a classic case of the fox guarding the hen house.>

"It is the duty of the patriot to protect his country from its government." -- Thomas Paine

[SilverMallard]

Yep! Which is why I have long argued as you are here: that these functions make more sense under USEPA or even USFWS than they do under USACE. But outdoorsmen really don't want USEPA at the helm, either. And USFWS nor USEPA have the in-house expertise or experience. Personally, I think we need a major overhaul of ALL 3 orgs and a new division created out of the ashes of the Phoenix that is tasted with the protection and management of wildlife and recreational natural resources. EPA should regulate traditional commercial natural resources venues like ag and industry. USFWS should keep doing what they do except for their enforcement division. And the USFWS enforcement division and the USEPA wildlife folks should be sent to the new agency whose sole mission would be wildlife and recreational natural resource conservation and management. All permits that potentially impact wildlife and recreation should have to be vetted and approved by this independent agency. And they would have ALL of the enforcement responsibilities for the same issues.

Bottom line: assigning engineers to watchdog and regulate engineers and farmers to watchdog and regulate farmers (and so forth) is DUMB when it comes to conservation of public assets. That is no smarter than hiring commercial fishermen to make and enforce the rules for the commercial fishing industry. It's like letting Congress police itself. Oh wait! We do that too. Don't we? LOL

[gonefishin]

Feeding the government or its agency enough money is like giving a cocaine addict enough dope. It just isn't possible. The funny thing is that the government and their agencies are more devious at coming up with ways to get a fix than drug addicts are.

"The road to hell is paved with good intentions" the government is so good at propaganda that they actually get people to fight and argue over the good intentions even though most of the time the so called good intentions lead to loss of everyones rights or privilege's.

It would be hard to get a lot of people fired up over this subject because they see it as only $4.00 but to a young struggling family of say 5 looking for something affordaboe to do on a Sunday afternoon it is a BIG deal. All of a sudden it costs $20 to walk around public owned property.

If they get away with this in the state parks on the lakes then how long will it be before it costs $4.00 to walk around/hunt in Mark Twain; then how much does it cost tax payers to hire enforcement to police the fee?

[Crippled Caddis]

SM wrote:

<I think we need a major overhaul of ALL 3 orgs and a new division created out of the ashes of the Phoenix that is tasted with the protection and management of wildlife and recreational natural resources. EPA should regulate traditional commercial natural resources venues like ag and industry. USFWS should keep doing what they do except for their enforcement division. And the USFWS enforcement division and the USEPA wildlife folks should be sent to the new agency>

A good concept but fer Gawd's sake let's not advocate an additional layer of bureaucracy! Better to reconstitute the USFWS in a new and more reasonable role charged with the duties you cite.

< It's like letting Congress police itself. Oh wait! We do that too. Don't we?>

'Zactly! As you mentioned in a previous post it's the "Fox guarding the henhouse" syndrome. And therein lies the problem!

GF wrote:

<Feeding the government or its agency enough money is like giving a cocaine addict enough dope.>

"The American Republic will fail when politicians realize that they can bribe the people with their own money."---Alexis de Tocqueville

We hang the petty thieves and appoint the great ones to public office.

----Aesop

<"The road to hell is paved with good intentions" the government is so good at propaganda that they actually get people to fight and argue over the good intentions even though most of the time the so called good intentions lead to loss of everyones rights or privilege's>

"Most of the harm in the world is done by good people, and not by accident, lapse, or omission. It is the result of their deliberate actions, long persevered in, which they hold to be motivated by high ideals toward virtuous ends."-------Isabel Patterson

"To be GOVERNED is to be kept in sight, inspected, spied upon, directed, law-driven, numbered, enrolled, indoctrinated, preached at, controlled, estimated, valued, censured, commanded, by creatures who have neither the right, nor the wisdom, nor the virtue to do so. To be GOVERNED is to be at every operation, at every transaction, noted, registered, enrolled, taxed, stamped, measured, numbered, assessed, licensed, authorized, admonished, forbidden, reformed, corrected, punished. It is, under pretext of public utility, and in the name of the general interest, to be placed under contribution, trained, ransomed, exploited, monopolized, extorted, squeezed, mystified, robbed; then, at the slightest resistance, the first word of complaint, to be repressed, fined, despised, harassed, tracked, abused, clubbed, disarmed, choked, imprisoned, judged, condemned, shot, deported, sacrificed, sold, betrayed; and, to crown all, mocked, ridiculed, outraged, dishonored. That is government; that is its justice; that is its morality."----Pierre-Joseph Proudhon