What is wrong with people

[TexomaOkie]

My first thought would be to reflect on my own heart and relationships. They certainly aren't perfect- not even right- but my base line is my relationship with the Lord. Death does that- bring us all back to reality. Reality is that we all will die. We have no control. If we think we do we are lying to ourselves.

If you can't seem to overcome selfishness, greed, backbiting, gluttony, lust, adultery, murder, stealing, anger... you might bend your knee to a loving and forgiving God, tell Jesus you've fallen short of the mark, ask Him for forgiveness and begin a whole new direction in the relm of eternity.

Phil, it's interesting how often we think on the same wavelength without discussing things in person. Should I be concerned? But....I couldn't agree more! As I mentioned in an early post in this thread, we can best influence our society one individual at a time, beginning with ourselves.

p.s. beginning this Friday, we will be on Lake Texoma for about nine days. Fishing should be getting really good!

[Brian Sloss]

To anyone who was offended by my post, I'm sorry. I felt I was attacked for simply asking not to play the blame game. I have met Crippled Caddis at the river before and found him a very nice fellow with a generous spirit about fishing. This got my ire up all the more when it was said I read no right speak about the Bill of rights or the Constitution. I have cooled down down and hold no ill will and apologize for any offense I have caused to him anyone else as well. Though my opinions are mine and are not about to change. I believe in responsible gun ownership, but there are, in my mind, places that it is not appropriate to carry a gun. The biggest thing though is this was a tragedy no matter where you stand and that should not be forgotten. Sorry to Phil if this got out of hand on his forum. I'm going to get back to fishing and try to keep in that realm from now on.

[Phil Lilley]

Brian- I appreciate your heart... asking forgiveness even though you may not need to can never hurt. Don't think this ever got out of hand at all. Nothing wrong with discussing issues even though they may strike sensitive strings.

Shall we dare to start a topic on the supreme court's ruling on partial birth abortion???

[Terry Beeson]

No... I'd rather start one on catch and release vs. keeping trophy fish off the redds...

JUST KIDDING!!! PLEASE DON'T START, YA'LL!!!

[skeeter]

Anybody watch the NBC national news at 5:30 CDT last night ? President and Mrs. Bush paid a condolence call on the VT campus and laid a bouquet of flowers at a student memorial site to show support. The "talking head" ( Brian somebody) that does the news immediately jumped at the chance to interview the President while still on campus and the first words out of his mouth were about "gun control" and what the Administration and Congress was going to do.

Pres. Bush immediately replied in all candor that this was not the time for that discussion, this was the time for healing !!! Amen to that sir and bravo !! Well said.

[Crippled Caddis]

Phil wrote:

<Brian- I appreciate your heart... asking forgiveness even though you may not need to can never hurt. Don't think this ever got out of hand at all. Nothing wrong with discussing issues even though they may strike sensitive strings.>

I offer up my own apologies to Brian, Phil and the board at large for 'coming on too strong'. In mitigation I can only offer my deep love for my country and great concern for the direction in which it seems to be headed. For those emotions I apologize to no one.

<Shall we dare to start a topic on the supreme court's ruling on partial birth abortion???>

I hope that even I would have enough sense to not become embroiled in that one despite strong opinions in the matter.

For those who care I offer below an extracted bit of text from a 'Gun Owners of America' report to membership forwarded to me this morning by a member. CC

******************

<It is also worthwhile to note that Virginia Tech is -- because of

deliberate policies set by its administration -- a victim disarmament

zone, where even those with a state-issued concealed carry permit are

denied their right of self-defense.

In fact, pro-gun forces just last year tried to get the Virginia

legislature to address the problem. The bill to allow permit holders

to carry on state-supported college campuses died, due in no small

part to rabid opposition from Virginia Tech itself.

VT spokesman Larry Hincker put it this way after it became obvious

that the bill would not pass: "I'm sure the university community is

appreciative of the General Assembly's actions because this will help

parents, students, faculty and visitors feel safe on our campus."

The unfortunate irony continues when one recalls that not long ago,

two students at nearby Appalachian School of Law managed to stop a

gunman at that institution. Happily, they were able to dash

off-campus to retrieve their guns from their vehicles.>

One wonders about the exposure of university regents to a charge of violation of civil rights. To an ignorant 'old country boy' it seems a slam-dunk. CC

[Gary Lange]

Many saw the signs well before hand and so many do nothing or could not do anything for one reason or another. It should send a message to others that have been told of similar individuals that harbor these thoughts and express these views that we can't say there is nothing we can do for them. We can't just give them a medicine bottle filled with tiny pills and send them home and tell them this will fix you up. We have no idea they are or are not taking it and what it is doing to them. The Flags were waving long ago that this kid needed some kind of help from someone whether it was on his own admission or someone elses or some agency. We need I feel more ability to get these kids or adults the help they need. I am sure he wasn't like this all his life. When did it first start and how did he start to feel this way about his fellow man and woman. What did his parents see at a younger age that they ignorred or gave no thought to. There is always a turning point in lives that someone sees but does nothing about that brings this behavior out. If you see this get them help as they need it desparately.

[Terry Beeson]

I'll preface this with one of my dad's sayings... "I'm talkin' when I ought to be listenin'..."

With that said, I'm willing to bet (though I don't KNOW) that his parents may have been warned at some point, but took a defensive "nope... not MY kid" attitude. Plus, without knowing the particulars, there could be some cultural issues.

Regardless, the young man is responsible for his own actions and as a society, we seem to have become oblivious to that fact...

Just my opinion... for what it's worth... and that ain't much...

[jdmidwest]

I think I covered it with the Frying in Hell part, pretty sure that is where he will be spending some time now. No offense to any Buddaists out there, generally a peaceful religion, unlike us fire and brimstone Christians.

Glad to see the news bring out the articles on the Heroes that prevented more of the killings, it could have been alot worse.

Interesting to see what info the madman sent to NBC between locations.

[jcoberley]

Now that the smoke has begun to clear, the media is moving towards a feeding frenzy of assigning blame. The first victim - the president of VT... The "armchair quarterbacks" have blamed him in that he did not immediately shut down the school when the first killings were reported. Had he done so and the result had been no more shootings, I'm sure he would be "called to the carpet" for shutting down the school for no reason. He is in a "no win" situation because it "makes news."

In my line of work, I am charged with "root cause analysis" of problems. This means getting down to the REAL reason and ROOT CAUSE of something that "went wrong." It is difficult at best to do this because we have been brainwashed to lay blame on and find fault in someone and ignore the underlying facts that resulted in the problem. As I told a former boss in a scathing memorandum years ago, "The problem is we do not know what the problem is!" We continue to look at any situation and take credit for anything "good" but refuse to take responsibility for anything "bad."

Is this "human nature?" Not really. It is a "learned dicipline" for the most part. Our "Dr. Spock" approach to child rearing has instilled in the generations at this point under 50 to accept no blame for their actions with the mentality that these actions will have no consequence other than a kind "now, Honey, don't do that" from our mom. And now with that, our "Jerry Springer" hungry society has found a way to "lay blame" for ANY situation on our parents and/or ANYone else we can. Just as long as we do not have to take ANY responsibility for our own actions.

Family? Church? Community? Those terms are ancient. What is a family? Are there any real "families" left in the US? I tend to think they are only in very remote locations in very small numbers. Unsupported and unscientific "best guess" is that the average child today has three dads, two moms, 14 sets of grandparents, and spends approximately ten minutes a week with any pairing of these as a "family unit." No wonder kids today are so confused. (I admit and take responsibility for being in just such a situation myself.) And responsibility? How can a parent teach a kid responsibility? The dishwasher does the dishes, there are but one or two pets to feed, and with soccer, softball, karate lessons, etc. who has time anyway? And don't use the cop out that sports teaches these things. No sir... You as the parent are responsible for teaching these things and should not rely on a "coach" or "teacher" to do it for you.

As for church, I agree. However, we can not say there is no "religion" in the family today. There is plenty of worship. We worship money, sports, cars, or whatever. That takes priority in our lives. What does this teach our kids? We want to live our lives through Shaq, Junior, Albert, whomever. We wear tee shirts, stickers on our vehicles, posters in our homes. And it is no longe sufficient to "keep up with the Jones's." We have taken on such a competative persona that we must "bury the Jones's in the dirt!" And if we DO go to church, there is a feeling that we must be "entertained" instead of taught. The last four churches I attended seemed too focused on making you "feel good" without the true depth of what church should be. Church is a place to be taught and fed, not a place to be seen and entertained.

Community? These are even more scarce than the family. The "community" I live in might be considered the subdivision I live in. It is not really a community, but merely a housing development. There are no neighborhoods anymore to speak of. I sat outside in my front yard for a while after work yesterday. It was a pretty day to be outside. I live at the entrance to the subdivision, so I saw most of the residents as they entered or exited. A friendly wave from me was greeted 3/4 of the time with a look of "who is this nut?" I know the first names of three people in the subdivision other than those that reside in my house. As I sat in my yard, I noticed there were a total of three kids outside playing. One of them was riding an electric toy car in the street. The other two were on bicycles riding in the street. The oldest could not have been more than 7 or 8. There were no parents in sight. Nobody sits outside unless they are in their own backyard surrouded by a privacy fence. There is not attempt to get to know your neighbors. Who cares about them anyway? The only interaction I have had with anyone other than the mother of my daughter's friend, my next door neighbor who invited us to an Amway meeting, and the local Avon lady is the chairwoman of the subdivision residents association who scolded me for having a basketball goal, garden hose, and bird feeder in the front yard in violation of subdivision "rules." No wonder nobody wants to sit out front. Community? Yep, it is dying a horrible death.

The beginning of the demise of the American family? I support one theory other than the books by Dr. Spock. That would be January 12, 1971 when Norman Lear premiered "All In The Family" on CBS. For the time, that was the most controversial television show leaving Elvis', Mick Jaggar's, and Jim Morrison's performances on The Ed Sullivan Show to be fit for Captain Kangaroo. Since that time, television programming has whirlpooled into a vortex of mindless and meaningless escapism aimed at brainwashing society into a mass of people who will no longer think for themselves.

What's the solution? I wish I knew... and maybe I do. But the hopeless feeling in my chest won't go away...

Terry, I just now read your post and I must say, Well Said!!!! Except for the 50 year old part. As I am 49! LOL