SilverMallard Posted April 22, 2007 Posted April 22, 2007 Here's a question for the grist mill. Phil, if you haven't discussed this with the Wardens, I hope you will and then report back to us. I'd like to get Quentin's input on this. The MO legal definition of a "fly" basically says that anything tied on a single hook with (among other obvious things) "...traditional fly-tying materials" is considered a fly when used with fly-fishing tackle. So here is question vis a vis the "soft plastics" prohibition in the Trophy Management Zone: Gummy Minnows? Tube flies? If I tie a fly and cast in on a fly rod with no jig head...just a fly hook...and that fly is entirely made of a "soft plastic" synthetic TRADITIONAL FLY-TYING MATERIAL, is that fly legal? Here's another example! What if, on a wild hair, I decided to wrap a bunch of scudback material around a scud hook, secure it with no thread...only glue...and tie it on the end of my leader? Would that be legal? SilverMallard "How little do my countrymen know what precious blessings they are in possession of - and which no other people on Earth enjoy." Thomas Jefferson (This disclaimer is to state that any posts of a questionable nature are to be interpreted by the reader at their own peril. The writer of this post in no way supports the claims made in this post, or takes resposibility for their interpretations or uses. It is at the discretion of the reader to wrestle through issues of sarcasm, condescension, snobbery, lunacy, left and or right wing conspiracies, lying, cheating, wisdom, enlightenment, or any form of subterfuge contained herein.)
Root Admin Phil Lilley Posted April 22, 2007 Root Admin Posted April 22, 2007 MDC, including Quinton, reads the forum. Let them answer for themselves. Personally, I don't think there's a clear answer. If Quinton, or any other agent, thinks a fly is illegal and can convince a judge that he's right (good luck!), then it is. Gummy flies are obviously soft plastic. There are other materials that are more borderline. It may go to intent, too. The main reason soft plastics are illegal in trout management areas is the fact that soft plastics can be impregnated with scent. But any scented fly is illegal too. If you get ticketed with a questionable fly and it's obvious that it was an honest mistake or it's a borderline case, take it to court cause I almost guarantee the judge will cite in your favor. Heck I've seen a judge rule that even he has trouble distinguishing between a rainbow and brown, how can other fellow fisherpersons!
SilverMallard Posted April 22, 2007 Author Posted April 22, 2007 Cool. I didn't know Quentin reads this forum. I'll have to mind my manners from now on. I like to ethical, not just legal. And to me, that means not violating the SPIRIT of the law as well as the letter of it. SilverMallard "How little do my countrymen know what precious blessings they are in possession of - and which no other people on Earth enjoy." Thomas Jefferson (This disclaimer is to state that any posts of a questionable nature are to be interpreted by the reader at their own peril. The writer of this post in no way supports the claims made in this post, or takes resposibility for their interpretations or uses. It is at the discretion of the reader to wrestle through issues of sarcasm, condescension, snobbery, lunacy, left and or right wing conspiracies, lying, cheating, wisdom, enlightenment, or any form of subterfuge contained herein.)
jdmidwest Posted April 23, 2007 Posted April 23, 2007 Instead of waiting for Quentin to answer, maybe you should forward this to the MDC website. The web manager that reviews the emails will forward the question to the correct division for review and you will get a response. Please share it with us as I am curious also. Why waste time and money on a lawyer and court time to figure it out. In my reading of the rule, they would be illegal, but have never had an official ruling. Good question... What would the jighead make a difference for, I tie the gummy minnow on a weighted hook which is basically the same thing. And if you tye the scud without any dubbing, would you catch any fish on it anyway????? "Life has become immeasurably better since I have been forced to stop taking it seriously." — Hunter S. Thompson
SilverMallard Posted April 23, 2007 Author Posted April 23, 2007 jd, 1. I put it here to stimulate discussion because there has been historic controversy over the "traditional fly-tying materials" element of the legal definition in state law. Several of us have discussed it before in person and on BBS's. Technology/materials change over time. So do legal interpretations. I thought it might lead to some interesting discussions. And I'm not in a hurry. 2. The scud with nothing but scudback on it was hypothetical. I don't want to discuss my REAL ideas in a public forum at this time. 3. I eliminated the jighead option to keep the discussion focused the use of synthetic fly tying materials and avoid the jig vs. fly debate altogether. SilverMallard "How little do my countrymen know what precious blessings they are in possession of - and which no other people on Earth enjoy." Thomas Jefferson (This disclaimer is to state that any posts of a questionable nature are to be interpreted by the reader at their own peril. The writer of this post in no way supports the claims made in this post, or takes resposibility for their interpretations or uses. It is at the discretion of the reader to wrestle through issues of sarcasm, condescension, snobbery, lunacy, left and or right wing conspiracies, lying, cheating, wisdom, enlightenment, or any form of subterfuge contained herein.)
Terry Beeson Posted April 23, 2007 Posted April 23, 2007 Regulations are tough enough to write to the satisfaction of all those involved, even those who pass the regulation. I think the "spirit" of the law would be lost in the court system. If judge #1 is a fly fisherman you might get a different ruling than from one who has no interest in fishing whatsoever and is a supporter of PETA. "Traditional fly-tying materials" should be more defined such as maybe "naturally occuring materials such as feathers and fur, plus any thread, tinsel, wire, yarn, chenille..." The list would be pretty long... Now... where do you draw the line? Is "gummy minnow" material acceptable? In my humble opinion, I think it would open up a big can of worms... no pun intended... But I'm anxious to get MDC's take on this... TIGHT LINES, YA'LL "There he stands, draped in more equipment than a telephone lineman, trying to outwit an organism with a brain no bigger than a breadcrumb, and getting licked in the process." - Paul O’Neil
Gavin Posted April 23, 2007 Posted April 23, 2007 Its not really that ambiguous...Can you legally fish a curly tail grub, plastic worm, tube, or fluke in blue ribbon trout areas? I'm sure they would be VERY effective, but they arent legal. Can you fish a fly with some silicone legs? No Problem. Gummy Minnow? probably, because its not made of rubber worm material (Plastisol). Cheers.
SilverMallard Posted April 23, 2007 Author Posted April 23, 2007 Well, scudback is DEFINITELY a "traditional fly-tying material." And it is definitely "soft plastic." And since scudback is commonly used on flies commonly fished in the TMZ of Taneycomo, I suspect that if one fished a fly consisting of a hook and scudback, one would be perfectly legal. Thus, I would assume that Gummy Minnow flies would be OK, too. The material is Sili-skinTM. Similar stuff has been used on saltwater flies for many years, and the Gummy Minnow is a very common FLY. By comparison, a jig is NOT a fly. It is a jig. And we all know that soft plastic jigs, worms, grubs, etc. are not legal. I guess one of my questions would be if I can use this fly on a 1/100th oz jighead the same way we use egg patterns and thread jigs on high water...with a fly rod. It's really no big deal, though. I can tie weighted eyes on a fly hook with this fly too. Or I can put a split shot weight above the fly. It kind of seems to me that the 1/100th jighead variant might be questionably legal, while other versions would clearly be flies...thus legal. SilverMallard "How little do my countrymen know what precious blessings they are in possession of - and which no other people on Earth enjoy." Thomas Jefferson (This disclaimer is to state that any posts of a questionable nature are to be interpreted by the reader at their own peril. The writer of this post in no way supports the claims made in this post, or takes resposibility for their interpretations or uses. It is at the discretion of the reader to wrestle through issues of sarcasm, condescension, snobbery, lunacy, left and or right wing conspiracies, lying, cheating, wisdom, enlightenment, or any form of subterfuge contained herein.)
WebFreeman Posted April 23, 2007 Posted April 23, 2007 A couple issue of ago of Fly Rod & Reel was an article on sj worms, I think, and at the end was the recipe for a crane fly that was basically a rubber band and some hackle. A would think a rubber band would be considered soft plastic, but it definitely looked like a fly. I remember last year, I think, there was a big discussion and a worm fly that had 2 hooks. I honestly can't remember what was decided, but it is a question worth asking from time to time and it would be nice to have as definitive and answer as possible. “Many go fishing all their lives without knowing that it is not fish they are after.” — Henry David Thoreau Visit my web site @ webfreeman.com for information on freelance web design.
Gavin Posted April 23, 2007 Posted April 23, 2007 Mallard, I think your gummy minnow might not technically be a fly, (but you cold whip some thread on it to make it one, LOL)but even if its not it would probably fall into the artificial lure category. Most of the stuff stuff your fishing retail shops define as "soft plastic baits" are made of a very soft, non-durable plastic, and its usually impregnated with flavor and scent. Not so with the gummy, its made of a very durable, semi soft plastic, and its not impregnated with flavor or scent. Cheers.
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now