What? No one

[Al Agnew]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe gigging IS prohibited on some of the trout management stream stretches. Of course, it is okay on all the smallmouth management stretches. It would be interesting, and certainly would be informative, to take ONE smallmouth special management area, perhaps the Meramec from Scott Ford to Birds Nest, and prohibit gigging on it for a few years, and see if the numbers of larger adult bass improved. I'd bet they would, but unless MDC can quantify it, they won't follow up with regs on other special management areas.

As for the assertion that gigging rough fish improves game fish populations, I can't believe they actually said that. Gigging happens to be mostly illegal in Arkansas (so much for your "Ozark tradition") and the Arkansas streams are full of BIG redhorse, bigger than anything you'll usually see in Missouri streams because the Missouri redhorse are cropped by the giggers before they can grow to large sizes. And while Arkansas certainly has its problems, there are still plenty of smallies and other game fish in Arkansas waters.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not advocating banning gigging. We mainly need to get a lot more serious, both MDC and anglers, about enforcing the laws, and maybe also putting a few further restrictions on gigging.

[gonefishin]

Its always easy to say that we need more law enforcement people on the waterways to enforce the regulations set forth to protect our wildlife, but as a law enforcement officer, I have to say that it is the responsibility of everyone to protect what's important to us. I don't advocate vigilanteism, however, as a street cop, most of the time we depend on observant citizens to help us do our job. It would not matter if we tripled the number of vigilant MDC Agents in the field, they cannot be everywhere at once, there's too much ground to cover. My bottom line is, if you see someone "poaching" it is your responsiblity to report them. Not to confront them, but report them. That's how we help MDC. If you say nothing, look the other way, nobody knows there is a problem except you and the poachers. And the poachers don't care.

No. It is not always easy to say. I dont like paying more taxes so I dont like to see a situation where more officers need to be hired. However if a problem is so bad that it needs policed then we need to hire more law enforcement officials, not have local citizens police it. I am not an officer however, my mom, two of my uncles and one brother either are or are retired. One of the problems with having local citizen police a problem is that only the super zealous are the ones doing the policing. Another problem is when someone local wants to break a law they simply call an agent and send him somewhere where nothing is going on. Another is when someone wants to protect a certain area or simply don't like what someone is doing they simply call enforcement officers and swear that person was doing something wrong so it forces a confrontation between law enforcement and the person they want out of their way. Either of these issues take enforcement officers away from where they need to be.

I am not saying people should not call enforcement, they should but only when they know for certain what they are talking about. Like in Phils example of the Duck hunters. That was/is a dangerous situation that needs attention. In the case of if someone might have a fish that is slightly out of slot, how does a person really know without confronting them so the fish can be physically measured. Or if someone is gigging and someone thinks that person might have an illegal fish in the basket-how does someone know without confrontation?

The law enforcement officers in my family knew where trouble spots were. They knew where they needed to be to be most effective. I seriously doubt our conversation officers need us to tell them what to do and where to do it. They are in the field most everyday and should know better than any of us where they need to be, when they need to be there and what they need to be doing.

Just my 2 cents worth.

[mcp633]

I'm not suggesting that someone slap a homemade water patrol sticker on the side of their boat and police the waterways. I'm am saying if you happen to be out, and see someone doing something illegal, report them. That's what the game thief hotline is for. I know you probably ran into a few officers along the way that thought they knew everything, but we're not omnipotent. Chances are, if an officer knows where the problems are, it was probably someone who pointed it out to him to bring it to his attention. People usually don't break the law in front of a law enforcement officer unless they are ignorant of the regulations, inattentive, or just plain stupid.

It's just my opinion that everyone who pays their fees to obtain a fishing license, trout stamp, or any other MDC permit has the duty to respect the laws and report those that don't. You can bet if I see someone breaking the law while I'm on the stream, they're getting reported. Even if he doesn't get caught by law enforcement this time, or the next, or the next...Guess what? MDC is now aware that there is a potential problem and maybe they'll pay attention, because I called.

As for dishonest people that would intentionally divert law enforcement from an area, I don't disagree, but they would do that anyway. It happens probably more than you think.

[jscheetz]

Here we go again. I posted in another thread with the article about this. What drives me CRAZY is this "old ozark tradition" crap. It used to be a "tradition" to ride on a train until you were in the middle of a Bison herd and then shoot as many animals as you could see, and then move on and leave them laying there. Just because it was "legal" and a "tradition" doesn't mean it was a good practice. History is repleat with "traditions" that used to be practiced regularly that we can now look back on and say "what were they thinking"! Times change. The environment and the landscape of our use of our natural resources is changing more than I think most people realize. Unfortunately gigging has LOTS of problems associated with it. I don't believe for one minute that there are all these "accidental" giggings of smallmouth or brown trout or whatever. I have witnessed drunken zipperheads out there gigging whatever they saw - and when I told the MDC they said "we can't catch them all"! I am sure there are plenty of guys who follow the rules, but I think that such a small percentage of people actually gig, that if we need to restrict it due to the problems then so be it. Sometimes the few have to sacrifice so that the many survive. Problem is - we live in this day and age where everyone wants to do whatever they want to do and if anyone wants to regulate them - be it their morality or their hobby - they won't hear of it - even if it is for the good of the whole.

So I am afraid some traditions just need to die.

- - - where I grew up some guys had a "tradition" of throwing sticks of dynamite in the water to catch fish - wasn't legal, but sure was a long standing tradition.

JS

[gonefishin]

It seems about normal to me that there are a few people who know better than anyone else what, how and where to do anything and if the people who dont agree with them the they are perfectly willing to use (read abuse) the law to try to enforce their beliefs. Of course these same people are without sin; they have never done anything wrong on purpose or accidentally. Reminds me of the people in Peta, they are perfect too.

For example take the above where Bison was mentioned. Come on. Bison were hunted commercially. Not only were they hunted commercialy but they were specifically targeted for extermination. Same with Wolves, Grizzly and Mountain Lions. Not quiet the same as sucker grabbing/gigging is it.

And of course there is Arkansas's abundance of giant Red Horse. I think that is great but, personally I would rather see large game fish. According to MDC there are way to many rough fish in our lakes and streams so they are competing for food and habitat with the game fish. The reason the season was extended and the sport encouraged is an attempt to balance the ratio of rough fish to game fish.

I don't doubt that there are some out there who would target Bass or some other game fish if they could however, I dont think it is probable. It is probably possible that a bass could be gigged/grabbed once in a while but I don't believe they are gigged/grabbed in mass as some people try to indicate. I have seen a lot of suckers in open/shallow water where they could be gigged/grabbed. Not so with bass. It isnt often that I see bass in shallow/open water. They (Bass) are usually in the brush, rocks or moss or if in open water they are deep where they can't be seen.

I have never been gigging or grabbing for suckers but, I dont mind sharing the water with people who do. More power to them in my opinion. I think the thing that is really going on here is intolerance. It is sad but there are a few fishermen who don't want to share the water with people who dont do as they do or believe as they believe. These people are willing to do whatever they need to do to get their way.

[bryantsmallie28]

OK hold on a second. Before you go blaming the lack of smallmouths in the creek solely on gigging lets remember a few other things. Gigging is definitely not the sole demise of big smallmouth. How many pictures do you see from the ol days of huge stringers of monster smallmouth. And you cant tell me they didnt gig them back then too. Many things have changed since those days not just gigging technology. The main reason the smallmouth are disappearing is habitat change. How many big holes in the creeks do you see that are filling in. There just isnt the water to hold those big smallmouth there used to be. I know places on small streams where i used to catch 15 inch smallmouth and swim in holes that were over 8 feet deep, where now there is barely any water in them and you are lucky to catch a 8 inch smallmouth, and I am only 22 years old. And yes fish are gigged illegally i have done it myself. I didnt keep it because that is illegal. but when the water is murky and there are a bunch of fish sometimes it happens. yeah more fish are probably killed on purpose but dont say it doesnt ever happen accidentally. Just think about what you are saying before you say that giggers are the only reason there arent as many smallmouth.

[Wayne SW/MO]

According to MDC there are way to many rough fish in our lakes and streams so they are competing for food and habitat with the game fish.

I would have to take exception to this. It certainly doesn't fit my memories, which go back a long way. Not only are there fewer Suckers, they are much smaller.

Bryant you make some good points about the habitat, but much of that damage has been done, and it only makes good sense to protect whats left. The difference in my catch rate changes dramatically from the week before gigging season, and the week after on some heavily gigged waters to be coincidence.

This and other violations are hard to prevent, but I believe a team of agents that roam the state hitting areas that need special attention would be very effective. They would have an advantage, if for no other reason, because the locals wouldn't know their schedule.

[jscheetz]

Ah, my old arch nemesis Gonefishin!

Good to see you again. I figured you would appreciate another historical wildlife abuse connection!

I believe it IS EXACTLY the same thing - whether you are talking about killing Bison by the thousands, or turning our heads the other way as a "old tradition" of unchecked gigging continues - it is all about abusing and misusing our natural resources. Different scales of abuse, but the same attitudes.

As far as gigging in the old days and big stringers of fish in spite of it - there were a LOT less people in the "old days" - therefore a lot less potential giggers and or poachers. So I think technology has came to the aid of poachers evern moreso than those who try to do it legally. Nowadays with cel phones, super bright lights, much better boats/motors, gps units, various emergency radio monitoring devices, I think that it makes it easier than ever for the bad guys. So that is why I think that more strict rules should be enforced.

And ya know what Gonefishin - I may not be the one who knows better - but the law of non-contradiction tells us that we can't all be right - so there is someone out there with the answer - I'm betting on the side of caution and preservation and conservation.

JS

[Wayne SW/MO]

Yeah nothing like a nice cold night on the river gigging, with 3000 watts of Metal Halides and a big generator running. Its kind of like the Buffalo hunters in a Humvee with a 50 cal. on top of it in comparison.

[gonefishin]

My memories of fishing only go back 40+ years. Keep in mind, the MDC didnt say specifically suckers...they said Rough fish. Drum, Buffolo, Bighead Carp, Grass Carp, ect were all included in the Rough Fish catagory. I read this in Missouri Conversation Magazine.

I agree. If managed properly a few agents whos only job is to target problem areas would be a good thing.

Several years ago I was fishing with my family on my own property and we were checked by a fish and game commision officer. At first I didn't mind that he was on my property checking us. He then proceeded to check all my equipment and make himself a general pain in the butt. When I walked up the bank with him so he could "Search my truck...(said he didnt need a warrent because he had probable cause... I think probable cause was the name he gave his gun) I seen that he had driven right through the middle of my new stand of corn which killed a bunch of it. After searching my truck for "probable cause" he had cited me because my wife didn't have a licence (?? still dont understand how he cited me for something my wife was doing, personal property owners do not need licences on their own land anyway). And he cited me because there was an old wooden boat there which he had noticed that did not have numbers properly displayed on it. Again this was on personal property so the boat did not even need numbers not to mention the fact that it had been there when I bought the property and had never been used but, my kids were playing in it so........... ANyway he then proceeded to make a big loop through my field even killing more corn as he left.

Some would say that this is fine....the place to settle it is in court. There are certain problems with that theory. First how do I settle dead corn? Second I had two choices; pay the fines or fight it. I opted to fight and subsuquently won. Of course the attorney cost me $1400. Who knows what the loss was to my corn crop. In order to get the citations dropped I had to bring suit against him and the state for destruction of property.

Some probably don't believe this story but it is true and further it went through the court system so it is on record.

After a couple of years of abuse by this officer and more than a few lawsuits brought against him and the state, he was finally dismissed as an enforcement officer. He still works for the conservation department, just not as an officer. The sad part is he actually thought he was doing good for conservation. The problem is he was just too radical.

The moral of this story is it is not necessairly a good thing to be so unyielding in personal beliefs that other people get hurt by it and it is certainly not a good idea to abuse the system to get ones own way in a matter.