bfishn

Does Walter make an appearance over there anymore?

Yep. fishinwrench raised a valid concern though, that the released broodfish could be caught and eaten by someone just a couple weeks after treatment. The product MDC uses is a relief in that regard (Thanks for the link Lilley); "Chorulon is the only hormonal spawning aid approved by the FDA in the USA for use in finfish (NADA no. 140-927)." Carp pituitary wasn't (and apparrently still isn't) foodfish approved. When I used it, it was on the low-level assessment list, meaning they weren't too worried about it, but no one had spent the $ to do the testing to get it approved. For my use, that was never a problem, as I was far too attached to my 30 or so 5-10llb rainbow breeders to even think about killing one for the skillet. They all died of natural causes over the years, the last 10 or so killed by freak lightning one night. I know, fish killed by lightning... I never heard of it either, but it happened. They all had burst swim bladders and internal bleeding.

To effect the next generation or the next 100 generations it would have to alter the genetic sequence. Considerer also that the eggs are fully developed when the hormone is injected in the adult and likely have little or no exposure to it anyway. Another hmmmm... Since the eggs and milt are stirred with a turkey feather, are they likely to turn into turkeyes? If McGuire had confused HCG with HGH... well... let's just say sprouting milky breasts would have been a bigger embarrasment... :-)

Thank you Mr. Lilley! And my apologies to all for my incorrect assumption of today's hormone of choice. It's been almost 20 years since I had any interest in the matter. Sure wish I had the www back then. :-)

The link I posted above gives a pretty easy to understand view of the practice; https://srac.tamu.edu/index.cfm/event/getFactSheet/whichfactsheet/87/ For lots more, just Google carp pituitary extract. ...Or eat the buffet at Mama Wu's. :-)

I don't know. I know I haven't, and can't imagine why anyone would.

Uncle.

Would you feel better if they used salmon "crap"? (they have). Or maybe HCG? (human "crap"). It's been done. What if a walleye ate a carp, pituitary glands and all (they do). Or walleye that live on shad (yuk)... is it OK for a shad to be digested and turned into more walleye, but injecting a few intramuscular CCs of carp hormone isn't?

I posted from experience. I've studied it, and I've done it. Hatcheries that take eggs from captive broodstock do it all the time. Trout, stripers, cats, you name it. https://srac.tamu.edu/index.cfm/event/getFactSheet/whichfactsheet/87/

(In anticipation of the next obvious questions). "Why "force" egg release? The last spawner I caught spewed eggs all over my lap." That fish had either already been on the spawning ground or at least visited it when the time and conditions were right, and that triggered her own hormones to kick in. Broodstock taken prior to that trigger and held in a hatchery setting won't release their eggs. That leaves surgical removal (killing the fish) or hormone injection to trigger release. "Then why not go every night and take only the eggs from sows that are ready to give them until you have enough"? Aside from the cost of repeated trips, there's a very good reason. Every day you take eggs you have to put them in a seperate incubation apparatus. For "fed" fish like trout, that's hugely inconvenient and time consuming as you have to treat each batch differently as each has a different hatch date. For carnivores like walleye released into plankton ponds at day 3, that isn't even an option. The fry you released three days ago would eat the fry you released today unless you have a separate pond for them. Soo... in the interest of efficiency, broodstock are taken to the hatchery and all injected with carp pituitary hormones the same day. IIRC, ~36 hours later the sows can be stripped by hand. This puts all the eggs on the same hatch date, making life much easier for the workers (and cheaper for us), and giving the fry a much better survival rate.

The use of hormone injections to force egg release is a common hatchery technique not limited to use on walleye. Extract taken from carp pituitary glands has been the substance of choice for years. It works very well, so I can't imagine why anyone would change to a synthetic, but I suppose it's possible. I've never seen a study that noted any lasting or harmful effects, and it has to be repeated the following year, so I presume it's processed and gone in a short time.

Chase them buggers at night long enough and passionately enough, and your own eyes will begin to glow. Comes in handy for those late night trips to the john, but tends to eliminate second dates... Keep at it. All but one of my 10+ came at night.

Maybe since Loaded Weapon was in caps he meant one of these; (Note to self: be more careful in the future kidding guys that carry Loaded Weapon DVDs).

I agree Al, it sure seems like another factor at play. (If) it's Current, Cover, & Chewables that dictate river fish positioning, it would seem there's something there to eat, but I've no idea what it would be. Without trying to be argumentative, I'd like to share something I learned at the Trout Farm. I had 2 side-by-side sets of 4 primary concrete raceways, each 4' x 50', with tapering depth from 18" at the upper end to 3' at the lower. Spring flow ranged from 400 gpm and up. The raceways were 40+ years old, and there were some cracks to patch before I went into production. When the patching was done, I diverted the spring back into the raceways and timed the fill of each to determine the exchange rate. Once everything was full and flowing, I added an ounce of Malachite Green (an organic disinfectant and extremely potent dye) at the spring and traced the movement downstream. For the apparenty identical rectangular raceways, logic would predict a fairly uniform, laminar flow, but that wasn't the case. Each raceway had a different flow pattern, some flowed faster at the bottom, some on one side or the other, none straight down the middle. The biggest surprise was the first pond (not too unlike a wintering pool) just downstream from the raceways. A "snake" of dyed water crept in an unlikly pattern before slowing enough to become diffuse. I had no sand to deal with, but after the occasional flood, leaves and twigs would deposit in strips on the pond bottom that closely mirrored an inversion of the dye movement. Later, when I had the facility full of fish, they often reflected positioning relative to what I recalled from the dye flow, at times in the faster areas, at times in the slower. What I learned? Current is far more complex and less predictable than the surface would lead you to believe.

Al's breakdown was excellent, especially since he pointed out that the reel alone isn't the end-all. I know the rods I have baitcasters on are too stiff for lighter loads. There's the matter of due diligence as well, it takes some practice to get it right. I don't think I've ever thrown 2 fluffies on the same trip, when the first one rears its' ugly head, that rod gets racked and out comes the spinner or a spincast. It's not the reel's fault that I haven't worked hard enough to learn it. Also likely the same reason my childhood ambition for the trumpet was brief. :-) Chub minnow has good points too. Spincasts have come a long way from the ubiquitous 202, and I always keep one ready for that quick cast at a surface boil. I know there are exceptions, but had I been handed a baitcaster as a kid, I might not have any interest in fishing today. ...Then again, maybe I'd have learned how to use it... :-)

Yep. When the current's rippin', I find tailwater 'eyes and cats the same way. I don't think it's the sand in particular that holds the fish, but rather the water velocity that controls both the sand and the fish. When the flow slows, (even without a significant drop in water level), the fish scatter (but the sand stays put).

Exactly the point. My folks and their peers weren't "bad" people, they just didn't know any better. To their credit, they changed as they learned. All the things I mentioned happened in the early-mid '60s, a few years later that no longer happened (in my area). To flip sides for a moment, the G-word literally turns my stomach these days. In particular, the Green Building Initiative (LEED) is such a huge con game... LEED APs suck an unnecessary 10-15% out of a construction job to do the paperwork that earns the Owner a... framed certificate to hang on the wall. All an Owner would have to do is tell the architect they want an energy-efficient, small environmental footprint building in the first place and they could save that waste. They wouldn't get the plaque, but they'd be way ahead $ wise. Too many people are stroking big $ from the status of being "Green". (See the South Park episode with the hybrid cars and the resulting Smug Storm). Awareness is all it took for my folks to change. To that end, I'll tolerate the younger whipper-snappers claiming to be the Green Generation, as long as people are learning, and practices are improving.

100% +1 I have some "bass" baitcasters (ABU) and some "real" baitcasters (Penn), and for me, they're all special purpose reels. Great for reelin' in, but limited to trolling or short distance/heavy weight casting. It takes a lot of practice and skill to consistently throw light (<1/4oz) loads a long distance (>30'). Until you're a master, you'll spend more time pickin' out "fluffys" than you'll care to. I use large spinning reels to throw a >6oz rig 80-90 yards below the dams on the Arkansas River with ease, and can pitch <1/8oz to my hearts content with smaller spinners. Yes, if you're casting every 2-3 minutes all day, a spinner will wear you out, but that doesn't sound like what you do. Heck, I caught my biggest fish (70lb blue cat) on a Zebco 888 spincast with no problems (that I could blame on the reel). For me, the biggest advantage of a baitcaster is the star drag that you can tweak on the fly with your reeling thumb, saving the movement to adjust a spinning reel drag in a fight.

I think we might have come from the same 'burb. See the post above yours.

Ahhh, the good old days... Wiping your butt with the slicky pages of the Sears Roebuck in a cold, winter outhouse 'cause you used up the non-slicky pages last summer... Salvaging the PCB-laden oil from the power transformer that lightning blew off the pole last night so we could dig up thistles and pour it on the roots... The all-you-could-eat buffet of lead paint chips picked from the bedroom door frame... Helping Dad mix the DDT and 2-4-D to spray on the dirt in the fields... Annual 10-mile trips to the local strip pits to watch Big David, the US' second-largest coal shovel devour the earth in house-sized bites... Running out in the rain to swing the downspout off the painted-roof machine shed over into the cistern to save on hauling water for the house... Helping Dad keep track of the gas we pumped from the underground farm fuel tank and wondering why it always seemed we put more in than we pumped out... Catching gi-normous crawdads from the open sewer ditch by the school to chase the girls with... And all that crumbly old asbestos we used to flake off the classroom steam pipes and pretend it was chalk... Good times for sure! (It's alright though, Doc says my lungs will give out long before that extra ear growing out of my left butt-cheek becomes a problem, so not to worry).

That's the head of the nail... From MDC's "trout" page; Blue-Ribbon Trout Areas Range from small creeks to large rivers Less crowded than trout parks and winter trout areas Small streams are not stocked, but depend on self-sustaining populations of Rainbow trout. North Fork of the White, Eleven Point and Current rivers are stocked periodically. Only artificial lures and flies may be used. Natural, soft plastic and scented baits are prohibited. The daily limit is one trout of 18 inches or greater length. A Missouri fishing permit is required, and a trout permit also is required if trout are harvested. Red-Ribbon Trout Areas Less crowded than trout parks and winter trout areas. Stocked less intensively than white-ribbon trout areas. Browns are stocked once a year. Rainbows are either stocked, escape from other areas or reproduce. Special regulations may include length limits, reduced creel limits and tackle restrictions. See regulations page. A Missouri fishing permit is required, and a trout permit also is required if trout are harvested. White-Ribbon Trout Areas Less crowded than trout parks and winter trout areas. Stocked less intensively than trout parks. Fishing is permitted year-round. The daily limit is four trout with no length limit on rainbows. Brown trout must be 15 inches or greater. Further seasonal restrictions may apply. See regulations page. A Missouri fishing permit is required, and a trout permit also is required if trout are harvested. Winter Trout Areas The daily limit is four trout with no length limit, except for Koeneman Park, Walker, Jefferson, Wild Acres, Busch 21 and 28 and Tilles lakes in the St. Louis Region; Cosmo-Bethel Lake in Columbia; Rotary Lake in Jackson; Liberty Park Pond in Sedalia; McKay Park Lake in Jefferson City; Spur Pond in Kirksville; Kiwanis Lake in Mexico; Everyday Pond on the Missouri Western State University Campus in St. Joseph, where catch-and-release with artificial flies and lures is the only legal method for most of the season. See regulations page. A Missouri fishing permit is required, and a trout permit also is required if trout are harvested. ***************** Note in particular the stocking regime for each designation. As for trout biology, they really do have it pretty well figured out. The hatchery textbook I learned from was written in the '50s, and the only major advances since then relate to disease control and feed formulation (back the you made your own instead of buying it in from Silver Cup). Biologists study each area, paying particular attention to annual thermal profiles, food availability, and potential competition with other species. Then they make recommendations based on that analysis. The real decisions on "what goes where" are then made by the politicians (read commissioners), based on the biologist recommendations and return on investment (how to please the most people for the available money). Getting an area re-designated would be quite a challenge, requiring a lot of voices in unison, but it can be done if the designation is based purely on ROI, which, if the remembrances here of "better days" is true is likely. Added Note also the lack of reference by MDC above to the tailwater trout fisheries (Taney, etc) which are primarily managed by the Feds. When the dams on the White were built, the Feds "agreed" to "replace" the previous warm water fishery that was destroyed in the tailwater areas by the cold water releases. Comparison to the streams and rivers that MDC manages is anecdotal, they're entirely different.

For scattered post-spawn 'eyes, compact spinnerbaits in standing timber are great. Toss 'em at the trunk and let 'em free fall to 15 or 20 ft. Set the hook at any pause. Best from mid morning thru late afternoon, as they leave the cover for twilight times. By compact, I mean ones that a silver dollar would cover the bulk of, they're usually marketed for crappie, and crappie ain't a bad by-catch to boot.

I was going to add one of my favorites, but saw Al already listed it; We Always Lie to Strangers, by Vance Randolf (1951) I stumbled across it at the library about 20 years ago, and after checking it out three times, I bought a copy on eBay. Presented it to a freind as a retirement gift last year, and I really miss it. You can find a library near you that carries it (or any other book) by entering your zip code at; http://www.worldcat.org/title/we-always-lie-to-strangers-tall-tales-from-the-ozarks/oclc/1174386 For Ozarks residents, this is a must-read!

Call NASA quick! The portal to Bizzaro World is open again!

e Who are these job creators I keep hearing about? I used to think the phrase referred to employers, but employers don't create jobs. Employers hire and fire to keep their workforce numerous enough to meet the demand for their goods or services efficiently. Demand slows, employers lay people off. Demand increases and they hire. For an employer to simply hire more people than necessary to meet sales would seem pretty foolish, even to a weak mind like mine. For demand to rise, consumers have to be willing (and able) to spend more money than they are now. A good number of the folks I know simply don't have any extra money to spend, especially those that are laid off. My employer (construction) has laid off 29 just this year, and he won't be hiring until he has the need to. If he simply "created" 29 new jobs, we'd be out of business in a hurry. The term "job creators" implies credit due for something wonderful that they alone can provide. I'd like to know who it is specifically I should be thankful to for my job, my employer, or the people that pay him, without whom he'd have never had a business to begin with? (aside) It's worth mentioning that the source for 50% of our companiy's work for the last 4 years was... you got it... the government, specifically a VA hospital addition and a new school funded by that dreaded stimulus money that didn't do any good.