Phil Lilley

Here's what I've gotten back from guides: Guide #1 - average 4.5 out of 10 want to keep their limit Guide #2 - average 5 out of 10 want to keep their limit Guide #3 - average 8.5 out of 10 want to keep their limit Guide #4 - average 8 out of 10 want to keep their limit Guide #5 - average 4.5 out of 10 want to keep their limit Guide #6 - average 2.5 out of 10 want to keep their limit Averages out to 5.5 out of 10. There's one guide who didn't get back to me and I know he hardly every cleans fish, may be 1 out of 10 or less.

That fish has probably spent 3 years in the lake. For 300 days a year, there are boats packed up from the line at Fall Creek down for a 1/2 mile using mostly bait - night crawlers, powerbait. If there are resident trout there that live more than a year (and I'm being very conservative)... well it just can't happen. Way too much pressure and 99% of the anglers who fish there keep any trout that size. This guy did and I think they were throwing jigs. But that's what it's designed to be... take 'em out below Fall Creek.

Wow... that's incredible. 15 years old!

This rainbow was caught yesterday below Fall Creek. I did not grow up there, it grew up above Fall Creek and moved down. This is an example of how Taney's management plan is to work. Both catch and keep and catch and release anglers benefit.

If I understand your point, I disagree. At some point, people will choose to go somewhere else and spend their money. They won't like only being able to keep 3 or 2 or 1 trout. We lost some people because the limit went to 4, not a lot but some. We didn't gain any new people with the "catch and keep" mindset when they dropped the limit to 4. And it's been mentioned a couple of times Taney as being a "put and take" fishery. It's partly that BUT with the addition of the trophy area, it's a put, grow and take fishery. Big difference in the management of such a fishery. With a "put and take' fishery, there's little or no consideration for growing fish bigger.

There is a mindset of "catch and keep a limit" that is the vast majority of anglers on Taney, I'd say 70% or more. Ask guides, "what's the percentage of people who want to keep a limit" and I bet's it's 8 of 10 trips or more. I think I'll ask them and get back to you. Be interesting.

Sorry I missed the weekend. Two weeks of hacking... I'm ready to be over this.Did the Norfork Tailwater fish better than the White?

@patfish nice to see you!!

I'm sure MDC will figure it out. I seriously doubt if they lower the limit from 4... Arkansas, our competitor, is at 6. I don't think Missouri wants to drop theirs to 3!

Low DO caused by stratification is every tailwater's nightmare. We're in good company. There have been some remedies, but all dams/lakes are different and it would take a special fix for us - that and an act of congress and lots and lots of money.

It varies of course. Some places you can walk across but most are like a normal river with a shallow flat side and a deep channel. Deep - 6-12 feet deep. The first mile - from the dam to a public boat ramp - is all easy access and public. The upper 2 miles can be accessed and waded but you have to walk down from the ramp. The rest is accessed by boat and can be waded (anchor boat, get out and wade). When I say waded, that's with no generation, otherwise, it depends on hoow much generation.

I’ve been told once you’ve swallowed the red pill - got a ss number, agreed to the IRS terms- you’re hooked in for life. I’ve heard of people beating the system but I also personally know people who are in jail who tried.

I do not cheat on my taxes, that I know of. I have to throw in that last part because even my accountant gets it wrong sometimes. Thats not a defensive statement. It’s to say everybody isn’t as dishonest as you say and it shouldn’t be an excuse to cheat- because everybody does it.

Gavin. I will look into the 529 plan. I have 7 grandkids! Thanks

If I want to build up cash for a big future project, how do I do that without showing a profit and paying corporate tax? Last year I paid taxes on $xx,xxx so I could put it back to build new units. I’ve asked several accountants and no one can tell me how not to pay that tax, which I’m not complaining... just the price of being profitable. My employees are not poor. And they aren’t little.

Pissing contest is over. Topic closed.

Yes. DO basically goes from 1 to 11 ppm at that depth in Table Rock where Taney gets its water, not over night but over a period of time. That period of time depends on weather, temperatures and wind. I've seen a lake turn over in a matter of hours - happen to see Beaver Lake turn at the dam one day while driving by. It was swirling and cherning like a sci-fi movie. A very cold, very windy day is the best way for a lake to turn. The water turns cold on the surface, sending it down to the bottom at a rapid rate. Cold water is heavier than warm water. It also holds oxygen much better than warm water. When the lake mixes and the layers break up, that's when we get our good O2 water. The lake continues to mix all through the winter until the lake starts to warm up in the spring. Then the layers form again - as to temerature/density/dissolved oxygen. By far, I am no expert... and I'm sure there's a better way to explain it. But all I know when the lake turns, our fish really like it!

The creel study started either the first of the year or before but it's issued by MDC when they deem it necessary to changes things up. It is a key ingredient to managing any fishery -- to find out what the angler wants from the fishery and see if they can acheive it. Or it could be to justify a change they see needs to occur. I think it may be the latter in this case. The hatcheries, mainly Shepherd, has had a lot of issues with water quality lately. Warm water, low DO. Then there's the other hatcheries and flooding. Remember it takes about 18 months to grow a trout to stocking size under good conditions. The last creel survey showed anglers would substitute bigger for less trout and the present one is saying the same. I don't know what they have exactly in mind but I'm sure one thing is stock less rainbows. Oh yea- the survey is taken by one or two MDC people from a boat on the lake asking boaters and people fishing from docks. They talk to ALOT of people, believe me. I don't know how many days they're on the water but it's at least 3-4 may be 5 a week and they work a 8 hour shift. They ask questions and measure caught trout. It's pretty involved. The trophy area on Taney has worked very well in my opnion. It's a 5 mile section that starts at the dam- blocked at one end. Two things makes it work - 5 miles and blocked at one end. One other good thing is I think it has the best food base for trout... lots of gravel/mud for bugs and big rocks for sculpins. One aspect of the trophy area that's interesting - because of the bait restriction, a vast majority of anglers do not go up and fish it. The majority of anglers who stay here are bait fishermen -- they like to drift with bait or sit and tight line with bait. Here's my other observation - anglers who fly fish or use artifical lures tend to be more catch and release. So what you see is a big majority of anglers that fish the trophy area don't keep any trout. That trophy area was setup with carrying capacity in mind. MDC didn't want c&r because the trout would tend to overpopulate the area and there woudn't be good growth rates, thus the keep under 12 inch rainbow. I'm sure if that part of it has worked but the plan as worked well enough to see good results so far. BUT could it be better if they tweaked the rules? One question I have is the food base. I'd like to see some sort of study on the food base up there. They tried to take samples of scuds back in the 80's by taking a concrete ring and setting on the bottom of the lake in gravel and taking samples from that ring every so often. I'm not sure if that worked... but you can still see a ring or two up by Lookout Island. Kinda rambling on... throwing some things out there for discussion.

You're forgetting about carrying capacity. MDC stocked 1.6 million rainbows back in the 80's and the quality of trout went south fast. Too many fish and not enough food. So cut stocking numbers equals more food for less trout - bigger trout. That's how it's worked, that and stocking slightly larger rainbows an average. MDC cut stocking numbers this year because of hatchery problems - flooding. Question is did anyone notice? I don't think so but that's what the creel study will tell us. What if they decide to grant the wish of the anglers in the survey that say less trout - bigger trout. They'll cut stocking numbers again and bump up the size. Right now it's 11.5. If they go to 12, that may cause issues with the trophy area. They may have to bump up the minimum size up there to, say, 13 inches. That would makes things interesting.

Jigfest - no. Got a chest cold that I need to shake. Couching like crazy at night... wouldn't be fun for me or the guys in the house. I fished for 90 minutes on Taney this evening. Kinda slow but did catch them on brown/orange head and brown/black/brown headed 1/100th ounce jig under a float. Good chop on the water...

I’ll be to post the results here. But most ppl agree with you, so far.

I'm home with a chest cold instead of fishing with the guys at JigFest... sure hate to miss it! I'm starting this thread hoping the guys post some pics of the trip.

I like this discussion. I'm with @fishinwrench. I like his attitude. I am content with what I have- no complaints. Under the tax plan, I think both plans, our personal taxes are less, not by much. And the resort will enjoy a tax break if we have any profit to claim. We're spending a lot of money on big items this fiscal year but most of it is capital. A few years ago, they let us claim all capital expense, not make us depreciate it out... that was nice!

Wish I was with you guys... just can't be on the cold water all day with this congestion. But I hope to get on Taney today and tomorrow... after it warms up. Fishing on the White and Taney should be excellent!!!

Report back... tell us how you do. Good luck. Anyone have any advice? @Bill Babler