Mark

Some on this thread remind me of the golf country club members - they want your green fees but just not play when they are playing.

I guess this discussion is all for nothing since no one really expects regulations to change in spite of each of our opinions. I didn't realize there were canoe rentals with 1,000 canoes. Yes putting all of them on the same stretch of river is a bit much and don't see how anyone would enjoy that except the party crowd. I wonder how much stepped up boat patrols would do to alleviate problems, but really I don't want to see a trooper on the river every hour to make sure I'm behaving. What kind of wilderness experience would that be? So I guess I don't have any answers.

Serious question - Are there that many more canoes on the Ozark rivers now than there were 30 years ago? I actually know very few people who float at least once a year. It was a big deal in my teens and early twenties - 10-15 couples would get together and float and camp together - and for the most part we were behaved. I just don't see it right now that there are way too many people floating our rivers, but then again I stay away from the notorious party rivers. I see jet boats as being more of a problem with causing damage to rivers. But I am far from a expert on the subject. I just don't see the issue of too many canoes the rivers in the summer IF they are picking up the trash after themselves.

OK Smalliebigs - I understand your frustrations after what happen with your property on the Meramac but that seems to be as much about poor business practices (gravel mining and farming practices) than related to recreational use. And I'm not familiar with that river. I guess my biggest concern for mandatory classes required to allow someone to float is the detriment it would cause to families who want to take the kids on a rare outdoor experience. I myself have had the pleasure of taking family members on float trips with kids who have never been on a float trip and adults who haven't floated in 20+ years. If they all would have been required to pay for a class, take up a Saturday, just to have that one time experience, well, very few would have went on the trip. I have no doubt that mandatory classes with a fee would cause fewer people to use the rivers, and the people who only do the rare float trip would no longer float, so I guess the objective of making the rivers less crowded would happen. Seriously, so many people go on float trips with the family because it is a cheap vacation. Would dad pay perhaps $50 for him, mom , and the 3 kids to take a class before going? I think we would be denying many families that one in a blue moon experience. Yes, they all could have taken the classes, but not likely to go to that trouble for a one time trip. I have taken so many people on float trips who had a blast, but have never been back on a river since then. They did no damage to the river. The kids had an experience they will never forget, and may become users of the rivers when they get older and have their own children. I think there would be a great number of people who would never take that rare one time float trip if they had to attend a class first. While we would not be denying them that opportunity, it sure would be a detriment. Responsible people who feel an obligation to take care of our resources will continue to do so and irresponsible people will continue to be irresponsible. Requiring certification to flaot will not change that. Personally, since law enforcement made it a priority to crack down on unruly behavior on some rivers, I have seen a drop in the number of drunken floatillas on the rivers.

Man somebody has their panties in a bunch. The Ozark National Scenic Riverways are as much mine as they are anybody's. So it is my RIGHT to enjoy them anytime I want to. I agree - from what I've seen, "locals" do as much damage to rivers as anyone. Most of us do behold the axiom "No trace left behind". I don't need a weekend class to teach me that nor do kids. Adults are the examples for young kids. Sorry you don't have your own private stretch of river. Go out west to Colorado or Wyoming and buy your own land with a stream if that is what you want and you can keep everybody else off of it. I hope Missouri never goes down that path. Most of us know which rivers to stay away from on weekends, which weekends are usually crowded, and I can say in all my years of floating, I have only NOT enjoyed myself because of crowds maybe two or three times, and that was on holiday weekends. What you are suggesting is more government interference, more regulations, more restrictions, and pretty soon what you end up with is the priviledged few with money or connections that have preferential use of the streams. I cannot believe anyone on here that loves the outdoors, streams, fishing, and tremendous recreational opportunities that we are accustomed to with our Ozark Streams would be in favor of restricting, regulating, and governmental interference in nature. Shame on you.

Also not in favor of any kind of special classes and/or permits to use the rivers. For all the same reasons, plus the people who want to make a once a few years trip on the river will not go to trouble of special classes and will just skip the float trip, denying perhaps their kids out of the enjoyment of float trips. The biggest problem I see is trash in some rivers and their access areas. I don't think special classes are going to change the mindset of those yahoos.

All good advice. Yes I keep some rope tied on to front of canoe. Not to proud to walk around something to ensure keeping stuff dry on overnighters. Nothing worse than a wet sleeping bag. All sounds good and looks like river is getting a little bump today. If we can get an occasional afternoon shower in the next few weeks, I'm thinking the river will be fine. Now I'm really psyched. Next week the Eleven Point all week, and Jacks Fork the following week. Does it get any better??

I'm hoping weekdays won't be too crowded although I don't mind the occasional bikini hatch. Man, I hate snakes, keep hearing "Watch Out" on the JF!! I sure hope to catch some fish, but am looking forward to the scenery more. And just to confirm with you recent floaters, I have been advised that most if not all tricky spots can be avoided by getting out and walking canoe thru the shallow side of the runs. We will be loaded although we plan on bare necessities and you all know how that goes, and even thinking of taking our old guitars. My buddy is more worried about tipping than I am, to me it's part of the adventure. Can most sweepers and such be avoided with due diligence? Are there any specific trouble spots that stick out in your minds? Anyone floating week of June 3-6 and see a couple guys playing guitars, stop on by. We take requests. How's the firewood situation at most gravel bars? We don't have a chainsaw. Man I am so psyched!!!

Thanks ColdWater. I hope the 200 canoe day was an abberation. I am so psyched for my first Jacks Fork trip in 2 weeks. Me and a buddy are going on a 3 nighter during the week so I assume we face much less river traffic than your 200 canoe day, but it will be the first week of June so I guess you never know. We are planning Buck Hollow to Alley Springs. Advice on here has been helpful but surprised you didn't catch many fish. It is still prime season for smallmouth, isn't it? Could the slow fishing been due to so much river traffic? Any other thoughts on poor results? I have read and heard nothing but great things about JF smallmouth fishing. I have had Harvey's recommended for shuttling. Will I need to call ahead to arrange a shuttle on a Monday or can I just show up? My only problem is I don't know the exact time we will arrive. But I have heard so much about the Jacks Fork being the crown jewel of Missouri streams, I'm excited to see the scenery and was hopng to catch fish.

Just wondering - you sit very high in the seat - isn't losing balance and getting tossed out a problem.

Looking forward to a report. I have just begun exploring the lower 11 pt. and curious to find out more.

Careful Al, you may end up with more guests than you figured. I never made it over to the Livingston area on my first and only trip to the Yellowstone area a couple years ago. There was just too much scenery on the Wyoming side where we stayed - on the Chief Joseph Scenic Byway, near the intersection of the Beartooth Scenic Byway. Spectacular scenery in all directions. Don't think I could handle the winters though. I love the mountains in the winter too, but just to visit. Think I would go Jack Nickelson in about a month.

Welcome George. Curious about the fishing there myself.

I, too, was under the impression that 200 years ago, the Ozark forest floor would have been covered in pine needles, and together with the canopy of the virgin pines, little growth took place on the forest floor. I have read accounts of early travellers passing through the forest floor in wagons, as the pine needles provided smooth routes through the forests. But I'm sure there would have been areas of open grasslands too, and fine pasture land for Elk. It's hard to imagine how beautiful the Ozark forests must have been with pine trees reaching to the heavens.

Should we be even talking about this?? No comment other than no comment.

Me too, Me too. Me and a friend are planning our first trip to Buffalo this summer. I have researched and posted on here, read all advice, printed off info, and still SO undecided. All help is appreciated. Scenery is top priority, fishing secondary, but certainly like to catch some smallmouth. I am torn between middle section and lower section right now.

A young 12-14 year old boy was fished out of the Big River over the weekend. He was wading with an adult and another teenage boy. He got too close to a culvert and got sucked into it. The adult tried to hang onto him but the current was too swift and pulled the boy through the pipe. Another rescuerer came to the aid and manage to pull him out of the other end of the drainpipe. The boy was unconscious and turning blue in the face. The rescuerer gave him CPR and resusitated him - luckily! Tragedy was averted. One lucky boy.

Fascinating post, Al. How in the heck do you remember such off the wall facts?

What is the fishing like on that stretch? I am interested in a short 2 day float as well with emphasis on fishing.

Sounds like the new owner is trying a bluff. I would love to have that conversation with someone trying to tell me that the former island/gravel bar is private property. I'm guessing that Hall Bay area is about where the private property starts. They have to know going in that they bought land on a public stream and they do not own the gravel bars. We camped for several days a couple years ago just a little bit above Boze Mill on the opposite side of the river. Sure enough, a farmer was working the field right behind us and was keeping an eye on us. We expected a run in with him at some point with him telling us we were on private property and to leave. But after a couple days, the guy and another fella came down to the river to inspect us, we started talking, and had a pleasant conversation. The guy knew we were harmless, not trashing the area, and left us alone.

I am interested in lodging on the Little Red also. A place on the river with a shoal and no public access would be awesome. If anyone knows of such a place, I would appreciate the tip.

I've always wanted to camp at Halls Bay, just too close to taking out at Riverton so we never have. Last year was the first time I have floated the Whitten to Riverton section in a few years. Amazing all the changes in the river. There was one hairy place just a mile upstream from Riverton with a narrow shoot between downed trees and a sweeper that got us. We had to bail out to save the canoe but only waist deep water. Of course the river was very low then so I'm guessing it's still tricky if Forest Service hasn't cleaned that shoot up.

Glad you had a great trip. The river is in great shape and good fishing right now.

Definitely a catch 22. I would love to be able to stay at a lodge on the riverbank or rent a cabin on the water. The boost to Oregon County economy would be tremendous if the EP became more of a tourist attraction. But we would lose the charm of the Eleven Point's isolation and solitude. From my conversations with most locals, no one wants to turn the EP into the Current River type of place like Van Buren or Eminence. I tend to agree for my own selfish reasons, but I don't live there and have to rely on the local economy to make a decent living. I respect the job that people like Brian Sloss and Mike Jones do, and all the hospitality and friendliness of the local business people and people in general in the area that offer such a wonderful outdoors experience that is affordable. At all the other places I have floated, you are treated as another customer. At the EP, everyone treats you like they truly appreciate your business. I could name numerous incidents where the people we have dealt with on our trips to the EP have gone above and beyond to help us out in any way to accomodate us. You don't always get that type of treatment at other float trips to other rivers. Love the Eleven Point!!

I have mixed feelings on the subject of brown trout in the Eleven Point. I enjoy the relative solitude of fishing on the EP. As a businessman, I'm sure you would like to see the boost in business on the EP. I am not a biologist either, but wonder what effect introducing brown trout would have on the other species. I would think there is only so much food to go around. I just think that the well known brown trout fishing waters are close enough that the brown trout fishermen already have their share of waters to fish. I kind of think along the lines of "If it ain't broke, don't fix it!" JMO