tjm

Got any ideas for a solution to the access problem? I think the elimination of parking is deliberate, small enforcement budgets and lots of complaints (not just the few idiots, the many idiots) brings a county to the point where economics play a part. "No parking" signs didn't work so they remove the possibility. I know a couple places where the state road row is wide enough that you could in the past drive down the ditch bank to the stream under the bridge that the state removed the access. (I assumed at county request.) Case law is (in my understanding) only applied in the courts, in this case it would be a guide for the prosecutor to press trespass charges or not to and to the court in deciding the charge. But it would not prevent a landowner from filing charges, if a charge is filed I believe the sheriff is obliged to make an arrest, isn't he? Navigability does play a large part, not because of the obvious reasons though, navigability at time of state hood determined who owns the stream bed and thus has bearing on land adjacent. Then fifty eleven prior decisions both at federal level and in similar state cases are compared with the facts . As to whether a stream meets requirements as an easement, in an A.G. opinion in 1971 John Danforth suggested the prosecuting attorney for the given county was "in the best position to make such determination" then lists a number of rivers in Mo. that had been judged as navigable or as to easement for the prosecutor to use as comparison. Danforth said that in Elder it says "Each case involving a river must be decided with reference to it's own facts". I don't think size of stream bed or discharge rate is necessarily the determining factor.

I thought Elder v Delcour made it clear that the decision applied only to that stretch of that river, thought it referred to a SCOTUS ruling that essentially required individual assessment for each stream. But I'm not a lawyer and there were so many "if this" "maybe that" and "judicial notices" that I'm probably mistaken. Did the Supreme Court of Mo write into their decision that it applied to all waters of the state? Is that decision actually a law or is it the reference to which a court might look for guidance?

My neighbor provided a couple 50gal barrels for trash once, he'd move them from the gravel bar to the dumpster area with his tractor and paid the trash company to haul it. That lasted a couple months til some folks emptied the trash on the bar and stole the barrels. Knowing what I've seen happen on some nearby creek land, I would not give ten cents an acre for a farm with a creek flowing across it, unless it was for immediate resale.

Why is it that we are losing access, in your opinion?

Fairly good article, Trout Addict, but leaves me unsure of what they said. Navigable rivers in Mo. are the Missouri River, the Grand River and the Mississippi River if I recall what I researched some years ago. Mo. DNR 300 page summation of Missouri's water laws; http://dnr.mo.gov/pubs/WR51.pdf Several years ago I found this blog (which the article links also) to be the most help in my (sort of) understanding of the mess; https://styronblog.com/law/harry-styrons-missouri-stream-law/ follow all his links and be prepared to spend some time with it. If the stream is considered a public way then come the arguments over waters edge or high water mark and where the high water mark and where that is located. Locally that seems to change with each case or perhaps with each Prosecutor. And do the log jams affect navigability? Last case I heard about apparently the land owner could prevent a canoe from portaging around or from removing the logs, but that was just what I got from a third party. Case can also turn on what is the "ordinary condition" of the water in question. Not long ago I could cross a popular float stream and not wet my feet; is this navigable? When the creek moves over 50-100 yards from a flood what rights/boundaries/row/privilages does that change? Does a list exist of waters that are legally canoe navigable? I found none. If not then it remains one case at a time. Land owner has to press charges and prosecutor has to take it through the courts, most often this is more trouble than people want; so they just bluster and threaten. I think the land owner has to post the stream side every 100 feet or purple paint it to actually call it posted, but I'm not clear on that, it may suffice to post both sides of the stream at the entry point. I can show you purple paint on the guard rail of a US highway row. Haven't tested it's legality. Other posted signs within the county road rows.

One that big probably has all the contaminants that you need for month or two any way, I like the 11" better to eat.

Banging on doors and asking permission sometimes works in this kind of situation. Hand guns were mentioned, handguns can be construed as provocative; I mention hunting ducks as a legal option, If the stream is actually a public way. In camo with shotguns you can always argue non provocation. Jus out doin a bit o huntin.

Research the history of the creek, chances are the man is right, Mo. stream law is non existent, except case law; which if I understand it means each instance or dispute has to be tried separately, but if you can find that the stream portion was used historically for commercial use or transport of goods to market, then we can claim it as a public thoroughfare. Stream use is not up to MDC as an agency, they provide access to water on property that they own, it is up to us to figure the rest of the stream out. In general if the stream was meandered when the land was first surveyed stream use is public. I am not sure, but I don't think any streams in the Ozark region were meandered, most land deeds run under the streams and land owners pay taxes on every inch of it. Eleven miles at average width of fifty feet works out about 67 acres that the guy is taxed on at the same rate as good crop land year after year after year, with zero benefit. If the stream was not used historically as a thoroughfare, we would be trespassers, if we entered it without landowner permissions. Any of you have a yard? Maybe an acreage? Do you want uninvited strangers to come there and use it as their own? Just think about it. Your property, your privacy, your liability if the stranger gets injured while on your property; still want those peckerheads in your yard doing who knows what? If you have a tent would you enter a random yard in town and set your tent up? Cook your diner there? Would you stand up for my "right" to do so? What Mo. needs badly is a legislated/codified stream law that is universal. On streams where the land is currently deeded the state could take the stream bed to a high water point as public by eminent domain and pay the land owners for it at going price of good crop land. State could then take access lands as well and people could Legally use these waters. Get the float clubs, the fish clubs, the conservation clubs and maybe the hunters all involved as a coalition. Call write email all the legislators, go see the governor.

Nice weather for it. Sounds like a good time. Nearly a lost art, haven't seen any giggers in years. Don't know of any one who grabs either.

Take shot guns and call it a duck hunt.

Trespass would probably fall to the county sheriff unless the whole thing took place within the city limits, I think?

What makes it legal to float it? Or illegal?

I have known of a few instances where a spring branch was dammed and the resulting "lake" "bucket stocked" with fish caught in different drainages, both Shoal Creek drainage and Illinois River drainage fish moved into Elk River drainage. Probably some from the White drainage as well. I've seen these ponds wash out in later floods too. How a hundred or so mature fish would change the down stream DNA reservoir is beyond my knowledge. Couldn't guess how many times this might have happened, I've only seen it a few times.

Absolutely. In trying to find out what I caught over the years I've seen pictures of what looked like the same fish identified by different names. I have seen rock bass called warmouth in articles and I have seen them listed as different species in other articles. Once had a warden tell me the fish I had in Elk drainage was a Kentucky bass, but he did not count the scales or examine the teeth. I never bothered to find out what exactly made a Kentucky bass different. Catch what look like hybrid google eye X blue gill some times too, deep very thick very black red eyed monsters. I did read once that rock bass could change color to match their environment, I don't know about that but have caught some that looked quite different from the ones just up stream a hundred yards and at the time did not know there was more than one species. How would Elk and Spring rivers not be a part of the Arkansas River system? And drainage is not far separated, some place a spilled bucket of water could run half into White and half into Elk; another some place half could run into White River and half into Illinois River; some other place half would drain into Elk and half into Illinois; and there is place where half would run into Spring River and half would run into Elk River. Not sure there is disagreement ; when I searched Ambloplites species I got; southern rock bass (Ambloplites ariommus) (= shadow bass??) Ozark rock bass (Ambloplites constellatus) northern rock bass (Ambloplites rupestris) shadow bass (Ambloplites ariommus) It was easier way back then, call them all either 'little ol perch' or 'just some black perch'..

I'm sorry I missed this, meant to be there but have my dates mixed up. Some how thought it was this week end, would liked to have met you all. Might go up tomorrow any way. Looks like a fine time.

Well, if you want exclusive use of a honey hole, buy it and post it; keep low lifes like me from accidentally stumbling on to it. Near as I can tell Cricket was sharing his (public)(state owned) honey hole. Maybe like me he gets lonesome out there, some times it's nice to see another fisher. We have enough problem finding stream access in Mo. that every single place you can get to is known by all who are interested. Which by the don't seem be very many any more. I don't know any one who fishes often, at all, no one. Look around this forum and count how many of you there are, look at how spread out you are and calculate how much damage all of you put together could do. I can't see the protection of resource at all, this comes across as fear that "some one else will get there before I do". Greed plays a part in it but dog in the manger stands out more. Reckon we should fence the State Parks all in and keep them closed to all fishing but OAF members? How many other anglers do you see on an average winters day? I saw one yesterday and another one today, and that was in a city park fishing a white ribbon trout stream that was brim full of 12"-16"ers. I am afraid to say where now though, might be some body's special city park and he/she would get all up.

I have always thought that all the sunfish hybridize with all the others, I know I've caught a lot that didn't match any of the pictures published as typical of this or that. Locally I think they would all be "perch", only recall three kinds of fish when I was kid; suckers, perch and flatheads. If there were any other fish in these streams no one would admit to catching them.

wow

Lived in a small village while in the Navy and every nice evening my bride and I would walk the quarter mile of street to the old bridge and back, usually see 20+ skunks on that walk. Skunks are better mousers than cats, imo, and eat piles of insects that I don't miss. I think distemper took most of the skunks hereabouts some years ago; I consider them rare and only see a few road kill per year now. The babies are cute, we had a den in a corner of the yard for many years. fwiw, tomato juice won't have any effect on the skunk smell on you or the dogs, here is a recipe that is said to work though; Mix all ingredients together in a plastic bucket; 1 quart hydrogen peroxide 1/4 cup baking soda 1 teaspoon liquid dishsoap Use a sponge or cloth to wipe the animal, can do the inside of the mouth but KEEP OUT OF THE EYES! Mix as needed, doesn't store well after mixing. Said to have been developed by a chemist, its been used by a lot of trappers. If you forget the formula and do need it sometime search the net for 'best homemade skunk wash' or similar. I've seen it on dozens of sites over several years.

When I fished southern New England I had a small number of streams that still held brookies, places where the state people said there where none, 9-10" was a trophy 7" was bigger than most. Beautiful fish though, for the top half of my fly rod. Much of the fabled water of old has had the native char completely displaced by stocking of trout, and the marginal waters have been landscaped to death. When I last visited that area several years ago two of those special brooks were under concrete for a large part of their length and another cleared of brush with reduced flow. The state back then did what the sports wanted and stocked heavily with "put and take" as the guide. I saw seven houses change the entire character of about three miles of trout brook. As a child in Idaho, I recall fishermen complaining about the cutthroats and bull trout and wanting the game department to rid streams of them to make better rainbow fishing. If I recall correctly I was told only bull trout/Dolly Varden were native in Id.

About critters staying hidden, a few years ago another forum; a person posted a picture she had taken of a bald eagle perched in a big tree; thing was below the eagle and to one side was a grey fox resting on a large limb that she never saw until she was working with the photo much later. Cats lay out on limbs like that too, and folks don't often look up the way they look down or around.

Whippoorwills look a lot like dead leaves and nest right on the ground on a single dead leaf. Sorta like the killdeers nest on gravel. I've had the privilege of finding three whippoorwill nests in my life time and saw the eggs and later the chicks. Likely the same pair in different years, as the nests were within five yards of one another. The hen did the hurt wing flutter to draw me away from the eggs but I didn't play. I was about one step away when she flushed straight at me then fluttered off crying. My guess is that they could wait two-three years and trap that many more off that Peck Ranch area, nature moves to refill any sort of void and that is very good habitat.

Looks like evolution in progress, if no one interferes.

I have no problem really with how you take game as long as you eat all you take. I think gigging and netting are more efficient means of harvest overall. Sportsmen have made regulations that benefit only their pursuit and are always happy to take others methods away.Very likely because historically only the nobility and the very wealthy could afford to become sportsmen, club membership required. Some day there will be people that say catch and release should be banned as it is sadistic and unnecessary abuse of animals. Trophy regulations are a step in that direction. Any restriction is a restriction and is only an incremental step towards banning. Wait, are you suggesting large mouth bass are edible? Don't think I've ever known anyone that ate them, remember back when I was a kid people always said they were full of worms. I assumed that was why catch and throw back was accepted.

Where is this "view new posts" button? I've been looking for one and along the way find myself reading old old stuff, interesting sometimes but old.