hank franklin

The rental car analogy doesn't work. Rental cars can go anywhere. Canoes can only go downstream. A canoe outfitter is more like a tour operator. You get the canoe plus the river. Have fun. All the stops on the tour come with the canoe rental. It's the same river every time. As I've said, my personal preference is for no change. However, the conflicts between landowners and floaters are growing and getting more hostile. A guy was killed. Terrible. I do believe the courts and / or law will at some point address this. Elder vs. Decour is almost 60 years old. My only point is to consider what might happen. I say again that I believe and HOPE that right of passage will survive for my children and their children. And I do think this will happen. It's hard to imagine the great Ozark streams being ruled off-limits to the floater. However I do feel the commercial operator may be called into question. I don't see how the operator's right to use of the river trumps the right of the private landowner to use his property. It is a real and growing conflict. If the effect of the commercial operator is diminution of value of the private land, I feel the operator could be made to pay. If I was a damaged landowner (which I'm not ) I feel I'd have a pretty good case. What is the solution? I really don't know and don't care to get into it. I'm only trying to ponder the future of "right of passage." It is a CHERISHED Ozark concept. I hope it doesn't go away. I feel I as a private individual can assert that I have "right of passage." I don't think the commercial operator can make the same argument, that his operation, collectively, has right to use the stream and adjacent riverbanks with no consideration whatsoever to the adjacent landowners.

If the outfitter wants a gravel bar for his hordes to congregate on, the outfitter should buy the gravel bar.

Hopefully this example will illustrate where I’m coming from: A family owns land on the Meramec. Very nice gravel bar. They swim, fish, boat, picnic, drink a few, ATV, four-wheel, etc. Good times. The property is not on a heavily used stretch, so the problems with floaters are minimal. And no one in the family cares one whit if people stop there occasionally, camp and move on. (Which they do). All good. However, for sake of discussion, let’s say an outfitter buys a farm up the river and starts dumping hordes of floaters onto this stretch. The very nice gravel bar is now crowded with floaters on the weekends. Many of them are drunk and disorderly. They pull their canoes up right next to where the family is hanging out. They leer at the ladies. They cuss, litter, play loud music and generally make a nuisance of themselves. The family game cameras occasionally are spotting them in the woods, even messing in Grandpa’s garden. Sure, the family could ask them to leave but are you going to confront a gang of river drunks?They've call the sheriff but the sheriff says sorry, not much we can do. So the family goes to the outfitter and says we got problems. Your floaters are ruining our property. The outfitter says sorry, ain’t my deal. The hordes keep coming. Finally one of the nephews has had enough and confronts some who’ve crossed the line. A fight ensues and nephew gets beat up. His ATV gets trashed. The family has had enough. They hire a lawyer and sue the outfitter for damages. The nice gravel bar is now overrun with his floaters. The family can no longer reasonably use it on weekends. They have pictures, game cams, cellphone videos to document. Family says If outfitter’s floaters are taking over our gravel bar, we need to get paid! What does the court say? I don’t know. It’s a tricky question, to be sure. But if I was the outfitter I'd want a pretty good lawyer.

Justin Spencer, it's nothing personal. At some point this issue will be decided in the Legislature, the Courts, or both. I personally hope nothing changes and that Elder vs. Decour as Al said is reaffirmed. Public easement, high water mark, etc. However, my point is I feel landowners would have standing to challenge this, and may well win. It's possible we--all of us--could lose this right of passage on gravel bars altogether. That would be a terrible thing. However, I think it's more likely that the law or the courts will recognize the time-honored Missouri right of passage, but I think the distinction may turn on commercial vs. non-commercial use. In the case of a non-commercial, private floater, either you have right of passage or you don't. No middle ground. However extending that right of passage to a commercial operation raises different issues. Why should the commercial operator enjoy use of the gravel bars for his clients with no compensation or consideration to the landowner? I believe you would have a hard time defending your position on that question. Like it or not, I believe the law would in fact hold you responsible for the impact of your commercial activity on the rivers and stream banks. This is not to say that you would be held responsible for the individual actions of clients (floaters), no. But the impact your activity in total has on the adjacent landowners would be called into question. On this point I feel you (not you personally, but the commercial operator in general) would lose.

I don't disagree with any of this. However, the fine point is the landowner should also expect "quiet enjoyment" of the property. The drunk and disorderly mobs wreck this. The business model that the outfitters use, which is to dump hordes of drunks onto public rivers with no responsibility for them past a piece of paper (floater release), and to expect the private landowners along the way to tolerate them, is seriously flawed. I am not a lawyer but I deal with them regularly and know how they think. There is a collision here between "right of passage" and "quiet enjoyment." I feel a distinction the case could well turn on relates to commercial use, meaning the outfitters would have no right to expect unfettered use of the gravel bars for their clients (floaters) in a commercial capacity. The floater and fisherman who is just "passing through" ("passage") would retain that right, but the commercial use would be brought into serious question. I feel the unfettered use of the streams by commercial outfitters does in fact amount to a kind of "taking" and the landowners may in fact be entitled to compensation. The outfitters dump their customers at Point A. They provide absolutely no services (bathrooms, security, trash pick-up, etc.) between Point A and Point B. The outfitter in my opinion has no "right" whatsoever to expect private landowners and the state or local agencies to pick up this slack. I believe the private individual has a right of passage, but I have doubts that the commercial operator would win the same case in court.

Tragic story, all the way around. I have my doubts the shooter really owned the ground where it happened. I haven't heard his ownership reported as fact. This is not to excuse the shooter, who needs to be locked up. But the sad fact is the popular float stretches are not family friendly and haven't been for years. I was at Onondaga a couple years ago and "The Bull" float trip was passing by on the river. All manner of drunkenness, vulgarity, lewdness, complete unabashed profanity, etc. All on the river right by a state park. While the polite floater may have a rite of passage, it's entirely different to say the drunk masses do. I think Al is correct in that there is a theoretical right to be on a Meramec gravel bar. However I think "passage" and "partyin" are two different concepts. And I think the landowner (whoever that is) has a definite right to ask them to leave.

My bad, I had my directions mixed up above. East is off-limits, west is probably OK. Thanks for confirmation. I had a good trip on the upper Huzzah recently as well. We were on upper Meramec this past weekend. Fishing was fair. This guy helped supply dinner.

Were you able to park at Harper's Slab? I've been told the west side is off limits for parking. We have parked on the east side years ago.

One assumes that trout are included in this "Lifetime Fishing Permit"? If so then a fishing permit plus a trout permit currently equals $19 per year. So if you're 40 the Lifetime Permit covers 25 years at $19 per year = $475. Very likely the permit fees will rise at some rate. I don't know what an actuary might say about the chances of 40-year old angler living to be 65, nor do I know what the MDC might say about the number of people who buy a permit at 40 who still buy them at 50. There's also the value of showing off to friends and family around the fire pit or at the bar drunk one evening. Sounds like an alright deal to me.

It's hard not to make a smart-guy comment here. But yes, if you've never been in a canoe before then be careful on April 1 on the Niangua. All rivers are up and flowing right now. If you've canoed but never float-fished before then still be careful in the canoe, but throw whatever you feel like. Your tackle list is pretty decent. I'd throw a Rebel Craw at some point.

My cousin and I floated Thomasville to Turner in March 2010. Bardley gage was around 1,000 cfs, Jack's Fork at Mtn View was 375 cfs. Ideal conditions for floating. No problems on the upper river, though the river is very skinny at Thomasville. It rather quickly opens up. Our fishing was excellent (smallmouth) from Posey Spring on down. One of our best March trips ever. We threw a lot of baits but primarily were running these white pink streaked jigs we got at the store in Eminence, right at the bridge. FWIW. I will say this: the river is a bit tricky at that level so be careful. A lot of volume especially below Cane and while not a big deal the combination of cold temps and fast water make tipping no fun. Yes, we learned the hard way!

I am just asking a question.

So is God a silly superstition?

OBAMA IS COMING TO GET OUR GUNS! This reminds me of a skit in The Onion magazine a while back. Headline: South Postpones Rising Again For Another Year. http://www.theonion.com/articles/south-postpones-rising-again-for-yet-another-year,377/ Fifteen years from now Obama will still be coming to get our guns. The Onion headline will read: Obama REALLY Coming To Get Our Guns This Time! No, REALLY! I dislike Obama as much as the next guy. Stuffed shirt, all fluff, bad news. But holy lord he aint coming for my guns. In his dreams, maybe. But I live in the real world.

Mizzou will be a six seed. Dangerous first game. Their second-round game would be eminently winnable. No matter what seed they get, Mizzou will be in the same bracket as KU. Trust me.

Thank you for these and other very fine comments. The military has been welfare for decades, my dad worked for McDonnell Douglas (military contractor) and he would tell you it was welfare back in the 80's. It might be OK to do this if you aren't bajillions in debt but when you print money to keep the system afloat, somebody (us idiots) will pay.

I've only fished the NFOW a handful of times but I have no doubt there's some brown reproduction. Life finds a way. When debating man vs. nature, I'll take nature.

What he said. I agree 100 percent. I know this is a fine point, but what JD describes here is actually state law. State government and local governments BY LAW must run on balanced budgets. It's one reason Missouri has a AAA bond rating and that you rarely hear local govts completely out of whack. The federal govt of course has no such law. JD's bottom line, "lack of leadership" IS the bottom line.

Cut the entire federal payroll by 10 percent. If you want to get your blood pressure up try this database: http://php.app.com/fed_employees11/search.php

I think Mizzou will be one of the most dangerous teams in the tournament. They are not an elite team but they have enough to beat anyone on any given day. The loss to Kentucky was really disappointing, it was their chance to beat a tough team on a big night. People dog Kentucky but I thought they played very well against Mizzoui, and we kind of withered. I really feel the next three SEC games will tell the tale; either we finally rise up and put it together or we sink down into the malaise. People forget, we have big-time talent but the moving parts never played together until this year. We're still trying to find it, but I sense it coming together lately. Pressey is the key and needs to take a cue from Larkin (Miami) and Burke (Michigan) and the show they put on this weekend. Pressey is in their class but so far he's faltered when the spotlight shone big. The more he can involve Bell and Brown and of course the big men the better. I actually feel we have better overall talent than last year, just not the overall leadership and smarts. We don't have a real gunner like Dixon was, but we are much stronger inside. If we finish the year strong we could maybe get a 4 or 5 seed (maybe even better if we really start rolling) and then I'd like our chances to make someone's day miserable. Of course knowing Mizzou it's us who will go home heartbroken.

The media is just as bad as the government. So much of the reporting on "THE SEQUESTER" is "steep steep" cuts, "dramatic" reductions, etc etc. Case in point: My hometown newspaper ran a story about the school superintendent complaining about the $93,000 in cuts supposedly affecting the district. The superintendent makes some rather pointed political comments IMO. But the reporter does not bother or care to report that the district has a $35 million budget and $93K is something like TWO-TENTHS OF ONE PERCENT of the entire budget. Not to mention the $5 million or so the district already has in reserve. Are you kidding me? The reporter and superintendent thus collude on a "sky is falling" story with just a bare minimum relation to reality. This is repeated ad inf in communities all over the nation. Must. see. clearly!

Washington DC has been an absolute boomtown the last few years. Biggest economic growth in the country. All paper.

I think the federal government is sucking the life blood out of the country. It needs to be dismantled from top to bottom. But any "sportsman" or "outdoorsman" who wants the government role in conservation reduced is a fool. Without govt intervention over the last hundred or so years we would have lost resources by the bucketful. I think state govt does a fairly good job all things considered. I despise the federal govt and it desperately needs reform. But without govt, conservation would be in bad bad shape.

Yep. Lovin it. Nothin more beautiful than a river flush in the spring but still clear.

Great question. I MUCH prefer to go with someone. My kids love to fish so I'm generally with them or with my cousin, who is my number one fishing partner. Also my brother. I agree with Al regarding planning, and in fact I pretty much won't go on a trip that someone else has planned. When I was younger I did a lot of solo stream stalking and it was fun, but now that I'm older with kids who can fend for themselves I just won't go without them. No point in it. Also, like others, I take great pleasure in putting others on fish. When in a canoe I am always in the stern and if I put the bow on a fish, I consider that fish half mine. It really doesn't matter who is doing the catching, and obviously with kids I'd just as soon they do it than me. I also feel there's an art to float-fishing in a two-man canoe, where you work as a team. My cousin is an excellent angler and so when we're out together my job is boat control while his is targeting the sweet spots. And of course I have input on where to throw, and where I put the boat so he can make his throw. Etc. Obviously I do my share of fishing from the stern but I truly enjoy the boat control aspects. To fish a stream well of course you have to get out on occasion and wade it but nothing and I mean NOTHING is more pleasureable to me than a day of true float fishing, where the majority of the fishing is done from the boat and the majority of the casts are taken by the bow guy, and I in the stern am secondary. Who catches what? who cares? Here's a couple pics of my favorite bow anglers: Hank Jr. Henrietta