Chief Grey Bear

That should be a book cover!!

Glad to hear that RS. I have been thinking about that for a couple of years. Wanted to take CD and do that. One forum member was dead set against it. Glad to hear your testimony as that is what I always felt it would be like.

16 inch crappie??? From the river???

Yeah but I didn't make a cameo appearance. That I remember??

Video footage??? Sorry fellas, Smallies craft has been sold. I want to thank each and everyone of you for the great information. That was just too good of a deal to pass up.

Nice fish. That is some beautiful looking water. Certainly sounds like good news. Who cares. If you are happy and enjoying yourself, that is what life is about.

What ya got there Al?? Got any pics? What is the condition???

I don't think anyone is being anymore defensive than the other on either side of the discussion. Did somebody bring up the native issue?? I won't say it has not had some effect. To what degree has not been established by the scientific community. In every statement I have read by the MDC, habitat destruction has always been listed ahead of Spotted Bass. If you, or anyone else, can provide a link to a statement made by the MDC that the Spotted Bass is soley responsible for Smallmouth bass loss, I would love to read it. Good luck. I doubt they are going anywhere. Actually, they are moving up the Mississippi. And the Mighty Mo too. Went past the Lou a few years ago.

To begin this story, let me start a few years ago when I was hearing a lot of talk about solo canoes. Everyone was wanting them. I didn't see much use in them. I grew up in a 17 footer and that is all I was ever going to own. And I have stuck to that. I just always figured I didn't need a couple of canoes laying around. One would serve every purpose I would have. If I was doing a multi day float, I had room for all of my gear. If I had a friend that wanted to go, I had a seat. If I wanted to go myself, so be it, I could that too. One canoe would serve every situation. And one will. But I have been doing some thinking over the last couple of years. I am not one to just jump head first into something. I'll think about things for a long time. As in this case, a couple of years. In the last couple of months though, I have decided I wanted to get a solo canoe. When I first thinking about this, I planned on getting one in about 4-5 years when I thought Dylan would be gone from the house and I would be back to doing more fishing on my own. Well, I have upped that a few years and started putting back some cash. So yesterday, while eating lunch with the wife, I broke the news to her. I hadn't told her a word up to this point. I was all prepared for her to give me all the cons without any pros. I was stunned when she said "get one now before we spend the money on something else." She didn't even know I had been hording the money until now. My current plan is to find a nice used one.(got anything for sale Al??) But I may bite the bullet and get a new one. I guess now is as good a time as any to start some real research on the subject. God love our women!

Ha! I hear he has a soft spot for them.

I don't know Al. The finger has been pointed at so many things it is hard to keep up. Meat eaters Gravity Live baiters Easterners Giggers Herons Poachers Chicken guts Trot Lines Spotted bass Jets boats Sun spots Moon waves Republicans Obamacare Armadillos Mitch Site fisherman Nest fisherman kids Otters Non MSA members

They don't mind eggs either.

Shhhhh!

That mirrors my thoughts and experiences exactly. Along with the spots, other species have also invaded your river systems. And some of those are bottom feeders. Your thoughts on their contribution to the brownie decline??

It could. But it is most likely Jonathan's and Red Delicious. And he stated Spots have 4 times the egg production of the same size smallmouth?? No you didn't but that was the illusion you attempted to create. Outcompeting in waters more favorable to spots as stated here?? Agreed. I think the jury is still out as you reach the upper parts. And again I am not disputing there are declines. But being from Missouri, I would like to see some research data that collaborates those numbers. Apparently not enough. Did you really just write that??

There may be some validity to that on larger systems. But again, the overwhelming vast majority of Kentucky bass I have caught in the last 40+ years have come from LMB type waters. You have some data on that?? Yes, and the smallmouth male will continue to guard the fry. Spots will also. But as has been established by numerous reports that apparently are consistent with MDC findings, a 10 inch Spot is not going to drop 40,000 eggs. I am pretty sure the Meramec drainage mimics other drainages as they are exiting the Ozarks wihch seems to be the prefered habitat that Spots seek. http://mdc.mo.gov/landwater-care/stream-and-watershed-management/missouri-watersheds/big-river/biotic-community http://mdc.mo.gov/landwater-care/stream-and-watershed-management/missouri-watersheds/meramec-river/biotic-community http://mdc.mo.gov/landwater-care/stream-and-watershed-management/missouri-watersheds/bourbeuse-river/biotic-community Best of luck to you my friend.

Cacthing crappie on the creeks is always a blast. This was one of the best years I have had recently catching crappie on the rivers. We caught caught a ton in the 11 12 inch range. Those are some really nice ones you have there!!

From what I can tell you of my experiences of catching Kentucky bass over the last 40+ years on this side of the Ozarks they shouldn't expand but little more than half way. They don't seem to care for the upper reaches of any of the creeks and rivers. They also seem to be mostly consentrated in those flowing into the Spring River watershed. And those are a little slower flowing and on the very edge of the Ozark plateau. I cant say that I have ever caught one in the Elk drainage. And that drainage more closely resembles those from deep in the Ozarks.

All predator fish compete for forage. It is not just a spot v. brownie when it comes to eating. I have never found a report stating that spots lay 40,000 eggs. Most that I have read have been around the 5,000 range. Usually lower. I have seen studies on LMB's producing 40,000 but that is also females that are much larger than spots and most likely from lakes. Unless you do a close up inspection, the fry from all black bass look very similar. The most notable and easily recognized difference is the tri colored tail of the smallmouth. Growth rates also appear to be similar for the first couple of years when smallmouth and largemouth being to pull away. Nature, by her very nature, is not logical. Higher egg production is usually associated with higher mortality rates. No, it was on a per stream basis. I don't know of any species in recent times that was near extinction that did not receive maximum protection. I would say that 80% + of the Kentuckies that I have had the great pleasure to catch have come more from LMB type habitat than brownie.

If the decimation of the smallmouth is as described in these waters, then why hasn't the MDC instituted a no harvest rule in these sections? It would be no different than SBMMA's that have been established. Why still allow their harvest if they are on the brink of extinction in those sections? Why haven't LMB numbers been effected? Al - that dam at Morse Mill, I have never seen it but, how did they get around it? joeD- bless your heart, you have a lot to learn my friend.

No I don't know them as well as you. But I do read your reports as well as others that post. In looking at the Biotic Communities for the area's we are discussing, the smallmouth is not listed as threatened or endangered by the MDC in any of them. I would think that certainly if the smallmouth had experienced a 95% drop in population, they would have made that list.

Well I do find it a little ironic that are usually blamed for only helping the black man. Couldn't get any more 180 than that. Maybe you should contact them and see what they can do for you. Wouldn't that be a hoot if they took your case.

I find that sometime between 11 and 1 is usually when if fires up. Most time it seems around 11. And it will usually last until you get off the water. I still can't quite quit getting on the water early though. My dad won't hit the water till 10. I just haven't quite gotten there yet.

Again, and as simple as I can make it for you, I am not disputing that the spot range now includs the Meramec system. I never have. I will dispute that they have caused an almost 100% reduction in smallmouth populations. Have they caused some reduction in smallmouth populations??? Good question. It is possible. But I highly doubt it is anywhere near the numbers that have been mentioned. How does increased jet boat traffic and increased fishing pressure favor the spot??

I don't know of anyone that is denying that spots are there. But I do have trouble digesting that the spots are the sole blame for a 75%, 90% and 95% reduction in smallmouth population. If that was the case, I am more than positive that the MDC would have instituted a no harvest rule on smallmouth. And there would be an all out effort to determine the root cause. Those are some huge numbers.