ness

Alright, let's go with the $10 per fish number, 'cause that's all we got. And didn't somebody say there were 30,000 fish allocated to the program? That's $300,000 -- and that's peanuts. Their budget is something like $140 million, so that's 0.2% I did find MDC budget info here. Somebody with more time than me might be able to glean some real facts from this.

Thanks for saving me from reading the other 4-page thread! So, we're talking about private money? (I guess NFWF is private). Doesn't really matter anyway because nobody ever declines free money. Taney/Branson is a cash-cow for the state, and this has got to be peanuts in the grand scheme of things. Kudos to whoever worked to have this money spent. Now if you guys feel strongly enough about abolishing the urban trout program, or helping smallmouth reclaim their native territory, then get to work. Squeaky wheel, and all that.

Sure, it's unnatural, but it's gonna be that way until the dam is gone -- and I don't see that happening. If you want natural (and I do too) there are places to go for that. And, Branson isn't one of them. Not knocking it -- it is what it is. Anyhow, I was talking about the urban program. I haven't been keeping up with the Tanycomo discussion, because I really don't care too much. Seems like these discussions generally circle-back to the enforcement issue. And believe me -- I'm all for reallocating some resources to that -- everywhere. But, debating the 'naturalness' of Taney or grumbling about the urban program are a waste of our resources. I'd much rather see a movement develop that encourages the MDC to improve enforcement. I truly believe we could get some movement on that issue if we put some effort into it.

I skipped over this thread several time because I didn't get the subject line. But, I finally figured it out (doh!) and think that sounds like a cool project. I can't see the pictures at work though. Can't wait to get home and see this one. I've been kicking around the idea of doing a fiberglass rod, and have an old and very ugly glass 8-weight that is a candidate for a makeover. This may just be the inspiration to do something with it.

Well, I'm afraid I don't even know where Backcountry Outfitters is, but I wish you the best of luck with your new venture. I always try to use the 'independents' whenever possible.

Again, I think there's some incremental sale of licenses that factors into this. I don't have a clue how many, but there are some for sure. I doubt they're hiring any extra people, or buying any equipment to do this. Likely they're using the existing people and stuff -- so, the marginal cost is the cost of the trout mostly. Likely, one of the side-benefits is keeping some staff busy that doesn't have as much to do in the fall/winter. I can't argue that this is the best use of their money. They've got a huge, guaranteed revenue stream, and they're gonna spend it all -- every year -- just like any other government agency would. I also doubt this causes a lot of folks to become trout junkies, and creates a bunch of extra traffic on our more fragile trout streams. It's a whole different animal, and I'd guess it's largely a different clientele. Sure, I'd love to see them pay more attention to the places I fish with the money, especially in the area of enforcement. But moaning about the urban trout program is a dead end. There's money coming in and money going out, and without solid data we can't really make a determination if this is a good deal. If you just don't like the idea of fishing from a mud puddle, well don't do it. But I'm not going to fault the people that do, or the MDC for making it available.

Eric, It's kinda hard to know where to start. As to fishing from a mud puddle -- so, it ain't your cup-o-tea. Lotsa people fish them -- I do occasionally. I don't think anyone has offered up data as to the cost/benefit of the program. I've always assumed the licenses approximately cover the cost. My county (KS, Johnson) does a similar program and funds it with an additional 'trout' fee on the county fishing license. I suspect they've looked at the economics, and they keep doing it. Underpaid teachers -- welp, ain't going there. But you can be sure none of MDCs money will end up curing that problem. Politics-free zone, so I'll stop here.

That's all great, but the fact remains: they're butt-ugly.

I'd have to agree with fiveweight. Why do this? Were they on sale? Hopefully 'natural selection' will purge these ugly bastids quickly.

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Call me old school, but I like books. I'm just not going to sit in front of a computer and read too awful much. The web is a great resource, but not the best resource. It's a hodge-podge of information that's poorly organized, often incomplete or incorrect. It's easy to get sidetracked, making it a poor use of my time. And, there's such a thing as too much information. I use the internet for little bits of info here and there, and occasionally print off something and throw it in a notebook or cut and paste it to someplace more useful to me. But a good book will always (yep, always) be better than the web.

I've got an older model handheld GPS too, but like Gavin, I rarely use it. I just bought a new car, and as much as I wanted the in-dash GPS because it's cool, it was going to cost about $2,000 to get the package that included it. If I'm going to an area I'm not familiar with, I'll sometimes waypoint the car or something hard to find with it, but that's about it.

I'm no lawyer, but anybody can sue anybody for anything. If your ride ends up dead or injured, you'll likely get sued and have to prove you weren't negligent, at your own expense. A signed waiver is a plus, but doesn't mean you can't be found responsible. I carry an umbrella policy that covers me for about anything outside the scope of homeowner's and auto insurance.

I bought their Topo software, and it was just too cluttered up to be very useful when printed. When I found water running uphill, and some other glaring inaccuracies, I returned it. I haven't really felt the need to have topo info most times anyway. I've also been confused a number of times when the road in real life is labeled differently that it is in the software (atlases too). When I find a situation like that, I rename it in the software or add a flag. There are several things I like: the line drawing function -- you can trace a road, stream, whatever and get very accurate distance measurements. Also, you can add boxes or balloons with info, and can always get a GPS coordinate -- which I've found to be pretty accurate. Since you can zoom to any scale you want, you can select any scale when you print a map. I rely on other sources for public/private info, and add it to the map if it's important. I've got a hard and digital (jpeg) map for all the places I fish and hunt. Hard copies in a notebook, jpegs hidden away on the web.

I've got that atlas. I use it for research at home, but man they're ugly and hard to read. I like my Delorme Street Atlas software a lot -- Over the years I've customized them with text, icons, reg boundaries, access, parking, points of interest, etc. I print them off and keep them in a notebook. If I find something new, I add it and print a new one. I can control the scale, detail level, etc. My backup is the red Delorme book. It's got pretty good detail, but a lot of times the scale isn't right for me.

Yeah, that's secret gem with fragile wild trout. That's somebody's playground -- he says it's private in the opening. I've been through Dogwood Canyon, but didn't see a bridge like that.

Terry -- what's the best way (for you and me both) to buy your book? I've had Proper's book in my Amazon wish list forever. They fetch a pretty penny, compared to other used stuff. Anyhoo, I popped for a copy. It'd better be good!

Just ordered a used copy of "To Hell ..." off Amazon

Oh yeah -- Curtis Creek is my favorite too. Forgot about that, and I can't picture mine on the book shelf....... Travers good too, just not much of it. Haven't read Zern; have you got a book name?

I don't have any instructional recommendations, but for enjoyable, humorous, light, fly-fishing related reading the John Gierach books are great. I don't have any one that's my favorite, but I have favorite stories from several of his books. The best instruction I've ever gotten came from guides, FWIW.

Cewl. I learnt me something today.

Man, I love it -- Albright website says Bugati MSRP $250, on sale for $35. Whoops.

Eric -- good choice on the rod. That should tide you over nicely until you get into bamboo. Albright Bugatti? Coldwater, where do you find this stuff? Never heard of it. Don't go tooo cheap on the reel. It's not all about the drag either. You want something well-made, that'll last a while and looks at least good enough that you're not embarrassed to be seen with it. I won't do plastic, and I won't do painted metal. Plastic's gonna break, painted metal's gonna look like crap soon. I've got several Orvis Battenkills. It's a decent, serviceable reel that's been around forever. I didn't check today, but I think they're around $75. You can buy extra spools, so you can kinda look at that as more reel for the money (spool it with different line weights). They've also got a low-end metal reel called, I think, the Madison line. They're worth a look. Nobody ever brings them up in these conversations but me, and I don't really know why that is. They're decent reels for the money and carry the Orvis no-questions-asked guarantee.

Wow -- that Ozark bass is wild looking. I've never seen one either.

I remember sitting in my dentist's chair and having him spout off about how much he was making in stocks. He wasn't alone -- everybody was making a killing and talking about it. I already thought things were inflated, and his confidence is what pushed me to move a large percentage of my retirement out of stocks. That was 1999, and I remember that because of the tech bubble that popped right after that. I'm not bragging, it's just when the whole world thinks the market is a sure thing, it's time to exit. It feels the same way with gold. When you're pounded with commercials saying it's time to buy gold, and others are begging you to sell them your jewelry, it just feels like a bubble in the making. I've gotta think it's gonna pop relatively soon.