ozark trout fisher

This is just an idea.... Have any of you all seen Maramec Spring in the area where there are no man-made rock dams? It is very shallow and fast in that area, hardly good winter-time habitat for smallmouth bass. Just sayin'. Also, I agree that longear sunnies are about the prettiest fish in this state. But I have noticed that they have pretty good populations in most every trout stream I've ever fished.

I may have to give that a try the next time I go down there. I know of a few riffles where that ought to work pretty well.

1. I have read every post you have written on this thread. I realize you are not saying that there are no native species in trout streams. I was just pointing out that I know a couple trout streams with healthy populations. 2. I clearly stated that I agree with you. Stream habitat is part of the problem. 3. I never said you had no knowledge. I simply said that you shouldn't assume that you know way more than everyone else. That's the sense I get from you, not just in this thread, but in many others. I was simply stating that I thought that Al Agnew's opinion is pretty credible, and worthy of thinking about. I feel the same way about your opinion. You really don't know how to have a conversation without getting personal, do you? I don't think I've ever started a thread that you haven't derailed.

It is simply not true that areas that hold trout do not have populations of native species. Myself, and quite a few others around here catch plenty of them in areas that hold trout. I don't know what is going on in southwestern Missouri, because I've never made it down there. But I do know what happens in my part of the state. Take Little Piney Creek. Part of it (about 7 miles of year-round stream) is a Blue Ribbon trout area, and the trout population is pretty good, depending on the year ranging from 150 to 200 per mile. Still, there are enough smallmouth bass and goggle-eye around that I often target them with pretty good success. As a matter of fact, I usually catch as many or more smallies than trout in many of the pools, even when I am fishing for trout. I don't know why, but at least in that situation, native species simply are not being crowded out, at least not badly. I know of several other streams where that is the case, including the Meramec, Blue Spring Creek, and Roubidoux Creek. As I've said before, I don't have a strong stance on this issue, because I don't really know the effects of the trout on the smallies. I prefer not to rush to conclusions. One more question... Is it possible that those streams that you theorize are devastated by trout just never held a good population of native species? Is it more likely that the water is cold enough that it just isn't good smallmouth bass habitat? Maybe I was wrong to call it a debate. Maybe a conversation would be a better way to put it. Biologically, I don't have much of an argument against you. So I won't try to make one. Still, I think we would do better to focus on other issues that are hurting our streams more than trout. Based on things I've heard, particularly from folks who are very knowledgeable, like Al Agnew for example. Maybe I will take a stand on the issue. I say as long as there is no concrete evidence that trout are having a very significant impact on native species, we continue to stock them, and protect them where they are wild.

That seems silly that they don't kill the spots they shock. It's a classic case of a few whiners overriding biology. The spots are killing a large part of the Meramec basin. The MDC needs to get serious about this. I would be all for a no-kill rule on the smallies throughout the Meramec basin. I would be worried about the amount of poaching that would occur under such management though. Still, we need to try something different.

I understand your point. But then again, we do love catching them so much. I understand this is selfish, and I won't deny it. But I these are my feelings. That's why I struggle with this issue so much, and refuse to take a strong stand on either side, right or wrong. Just as an unimportant side note, it is very likely the trout you caught in the North Fork were wild. All of the rainbows there are (except for an occasional hatchery mistake, or a trout farm escapee), although I believe the browns are hatchery fish.

In regard to this post, I'm not quite sure what to say. I have mixed feelings on the issue. I prefer not to rush to "take a stand" on an issue I don't really understand. I feel that would be irresponsible. As I think you already know, I was not saying I am a better fisherman than anyone. As a matter of fact, I don't really even know what's going through your head on that one. I simply said that there are areas with high concentrations of trout, that also hold decent populations of native species. Where did you get off on that one??? Lastly, I don't think your negativity is needed here. Can we not have a debate without it? I don't think I have said anything here that could be considered offensive by anyone, and I would appreciate it if that was reciprocated. You have not done any scientific research on this topic. You cannot be sure of what is going on. Don't pretend to be. There have been no topics where any kind of a debate has occurred on this forum lately that has not turned into a pissing match. Mr. Greybear, I would appreciate it if you wouldn't help this descend into one. This topic is about the effects of non-native species of fish on native species. I will confine my conversation to that from here forward.

Interesting. That sheds a lot of light on a few issues I didn't really understand. Although I could be wrong, it seems like working to take out spotted bass, and further regulating gigging might be a better place to focus our efforts. Does the Missouri Department of Conservation take out the spotted bass they catch in their annual electroshock of the Meramec? If not I think they should look into to it. It might help the situation somewhat.

Sounds like a truly awesome trip, on a truly awesome stream. On a side note, I'm surprised to hear about the salmon eggs. I've never tried them before. How many do you put on a hook? Also, if you don't mind me asking, do you fish them on the bottom, or use a bobber?

Thanks for the advice everyone.

I have made it perfectly clear, that I do care about trout displacing native species in areas in which trout are common. That is the reason why I started this thread in the first place. And the fact is, a decent number of native species can survive in areas where trout are extremely common. I quite often catch bass in the Blue Ribbon area off the Little Piney, and the Red Ribbon area of the Meramec. As a matter of fact, numbers are high enough in both places that I often target smallies in both areas. The White Ribbon trout area of the Little Piney (stocked with a number of thousands of trout per year) is one of my favorite places around to catch goggle-eye and smallies. I probably fish for them there more than I do trout, especially in Summer. I know for a fact that even in Bennett Spring, where the highest stocking rate of any trout park occurs, there are enough smallies that some people target them, especially below the Whistle Bridge. Are their populations dropped somewhat? I would think so. Is it a catastrophic effect on the bass? Probably not. I am not a proponent that we stop stocking any trout water without a large amount of scientific evidence that there is a disastrous effect on the native species. I don't think this is something that we should rush into recklessly. With that said, if trout are causing a huge problem, we need to do something to mitigate it.

Sounds like an awesome trip... I've been meaning to get on the Buffalo, but its so far away.

Of course there is some effect on bass by trout... I just don't know what the effect is. That is where speculation comes in. Unfortunately, I don't have the scientific knowledge or training to make a meaningful investigation on this. Otherwise I would. As for the Kentuckies/vs. smallies... That is an interesting point of view, never really thought of it that way before. I bet it was a mixture of man making the habitat worse, and the Kentucky's entering the river. As a firm believer in global warming, your explanation would make a good bit of since to me. By the way, below the park at Meramec is not just an "incidental" trout area. Besides the thousands of trout that escape from the park (enough rainbows escape to keep just the rainbow population at about 150 per mile for 8 miles below the park, a very significant number), the state also stocks brown trout in the river itself intentionally. The brown trout add about another 200 trout per mile to the count. This brings it to about 350 per mile, a very respectable trout population. So there are definitely enough trout there to have some sort of effect on the local bass population, if only for 8 or 10 miles of river. Once the river warms up below Scotts Ford however (8 miles below Maramec Spring), the river begins to warm well out of a trout's comfort range, and I doubt if there are enough trout to impact the bass population below there. But again, just speculation on my part.

I want to make something just a bit clear. I am not advocating that we stop stocking trout anywhere they are currently planted. They are well established in many areas, and many folks incomes are staked on chasing them. Plus, many folks, like myself, have developed a love affair with fishing for them. I would be absolutely heartbroken if Missouri's trout program were ended. I'm just saying we should consider the issue, and maybe not expand the trout program. Everyone is entitled to their opinion though. It is complicated.

Yes. I did here about the regulation change. I think it may have helped, but more still needs to be done about the spots (kentuckies). They are still actively invading new habitat, especially in the Bourbeuse and Big. Of course trout are not a factor in either of those areas. I am aware that the occasional wandering trout will have no effect on bass populations. I was just trying to give as objective of an account of the issue of trout migration as I could. I know that the water around Onondaga is not at all good habitat for trout. The few trout that are down there probably just live in spring holes, not having any effect whatsoever on the trout. Frankly, I do not know what effect trout have on native species in the areas in which they are common. As far as I am aware, there is little or no research on the topic, so all is just speculation.

That is exactly what it is. This has absolutely nothing to do with Obama. A lot of folks here don't like Obama, so they will blame him for anything, justly or not.

Sorry for getting off topic there. I am not a big tube fisherman, but I have had some luck on 3 1/2 inchers, on a jig hook. Brown and Green have been the best colors for me, I'm a fan of Zoom salt impregnated tubes. I just crawl it along the bottom, giving it a little twitch here and there.

I would say that the spotted bass issue has little to do with trout, although I could be wrong. Most (though certainly not all) of the spotted bass in the Meramec system are far downstream of any water where a trout could survive, at least in the summertime. My opinion (and I could be totally off base on this) is that spots and smallies co-exist in Southwest Missouri, because they are native there. They have reached their natural balance many years ago. In the Meramec Basin, spots are very non-native, and I don't think the natural balance has worked itself out yet. Once again, I could be wrong, but I'm just guessing. I don't think anyone really knows for sure. Trout are very migratory. They will migrate far out of their traditional habitat during the winter and spring but usually, they'll come back by early summer. Of course some will find an odd spring hole, or cool tributary, so they can survive in a stretch of river that is generally too warm to hold trout. This would explain the occasional summer trout that is caught way out of their normal range. Personally, I've caught trout more than 10 miles outside of the normal trout waters. I have heard of folks catching some all the way down to Onondaga State Park (about 30 miles below the furthest downstream stocking point) on the Meramec, although its pretty darn rare.

I don't know if you all know, but the jig and float is also a classic trout technique. Might have to try it for winter smallies too. I've caught some winter bass on 5" plastic worms Texas Rigged. I prefer Green Pumpkin or Black, but that's just me. Zoom Curly Tails are my favorite. During the winter, I usually fish the more spring-fed streams. Actually one of my favorite winter smallie areas is the White Ribbon Trout area on Little Piney Creek. I can toss spinners to the trout for awhile, and then switch to smallie fishing. A lot of fun if you ask me.

Most likely. Get a small rise in the river, and you might really get some good fishing. By the way, anything that looks even remotely like a suckerfish is great in that river. Silver rapalas and Bomber Crankbaits have done great for me.

Either 7 or 8, can't remember of the top of my head.... I would think it would for sure be at least semi-floatable. Even a couple weeks ago, you could have muscled through the riffles, and have lots of long pools that would be easy to get through. You would be wanting to fish the riffles mostly anyway, so getting out of your boat wouldn't be all that bad. It would be real comfortable, cause you'd have to get out of your boat often, but you could do it. It just depends on how much your willing to work on a float. The water levels could rise significantly also, which would both help the fishing, and make floating a heck of a lot easier. Just know it doesn't rise, you'll be dragging through about every riffle. It might be worth it though. It would definitely be a long day of it. I had planned on getting out on it in my kayak this weekend (paddling upstream, and fishing my way back down from Mill Rock), but a back injury sort of put a kibosh on those plans. Oh well.

That's no good.... I thought the government was always prompt in they're replies, and did everything perfect. Just kidding of course. I'll give them a call on Monday. Wait, its Labor Day weekend isn't it.. I mean Tuesday.

It would definitely be difficult enforce a mandatory creel limit. The lake I often fish has a mandatory kill order for largemouth under 12", but I know for a fact it is widely broken, for the simple fact that no one wants to fillet a 10" bass. I also agree with a statewide 18" and one limit for smallmouth. It would be a great thing for all fisherman, except a few "meat hunters". About the trout issue, if the dam was taken down.... Hatchery trout are not sterilized in any way. They, however, cannot spawn well in the Maramec River due to heavy floods, and poor spawning substrate. Many trout do currently move from the spring branch to the river, and vice versa, but it is only possible when the water is quite high, and water is flowing over the rock dam. Still, there are enough park escapees to maintain a good rainbow trout fishery in the river below. There are a few wild trout there, but they are almost all migrants from tiny brooks like Blue Spring Creek, and a few other unmarked wild trout streams. Taking the dam down, would however, cause more of the Maramec Spring trout to escape into the river, which could definitely cause problems. Also, it would anger some meat hunters in the trout park, because the dam concentrates the trout, and makes them easier to catch. But I frankly don't care about that. I feel as if this topic is kind of getting to the heart of one of the most uncomfortable conservation issues in this state, one that really no one is looking at.

If you're bait fishing, make sure to stay below Fall Creek... I would guess Powerbait and worms would do the trick, but who knows.

Here's an article I wrote on my blog, but I thought it might be helpful here too... Just about wild trout fishing in Missouri. First and foremost... If you fish one of these streams, we strongly encourage to release each and every trout you catch. These fisheries are fragile, and can handle almost no harvest whatsoever. If you would like to catch fish in the future, please release all of the wild trout you catch now. If your are looking to harvest fish, there are many stocked trout streams in Missouri that can sustain some responsible harvest. The littlest known trout fishery in the Ozark hills would definitely be the small wild trout streams that lace southern Missouri. These streams get very little pressure, and they provide excellent fishing. But they aren’t for everyone. It takes a lot of work, and a bit of skill to take these stream-bred trout. If you like easy fishing for hatchery raised trout, chances are you’ll only be frustrated. If you enjoy being on a quiet, natural stream, and catching trout on their own terms, you’ll really enjoy this type of fishing. Tactics are pretty universal for catching the wild rainbows that inhabit these small streams. In short, you want to imitate the natural food base. For that reason, if there’s a hatch, fly fisherman that are “matching the hatch”, will generally take more fish than others. When fish aren’t rising, spin fisherman, or fly anglers tossing streamers or nymphs will do quite well. In short, you have to know what the trout are feeding on at that particular moment to be successful. Stealth may be an even more important element of success. If you spook the trout before you begin fishing, it won’t matter how enticing your offering is. When you come up on a likely run, wade quietly (i.e. do not step heavily or crunch gravel), and try to keep your profile down. Some even approach on their hands and knees. Also, do not allow your lure of fly to make a loud splash when it hits the water. The more educated fish will be put off their feed by this. If your fly fishing, keep your false casts to a minimum. For fly fisherman, 7x tippet is often necessary, and spin fisherman should use line no heavier than four pound test. Only fish the productive water. There is no point in wasting your time on water that is unlikely to hold fish. In short, if there is little or no current, you won’t find many or any trout. Pools are a good place to fish, provided they have a decent current, and a defined channel. Riffles are arguably even more productive, especially on the larger creeks. Any thing over 10” deep can, and probably does hold trout from time to time. Enjoy fishing, even if it’s slow. The biggest part of the fun in this type of fishing is just being out in nature on a wild stream. If that’s not enough for you to have a good day, these streams probably aren’t for you anyway. Also, enjoy every fish you catch. Any fish you catch in one of these streams is a trophy. You have taken it on its terms, in the wild. It doesn’t get any better. Here’s a couple short lists to help you get started. First, is a list of wild trout streams, and the prime water in each of them. Note that the “prime water” that I highlight usually isn’t the entire area of stream managed for wild trout, just the stretch you’re mostly to find good populations of wild trout. Also, on all streams listed, artificial lures and flies only are allowed. You can keep one fish over 18”, but we encourage you release each one you catch. Next, I’ll list some lures and flies that are very successful on just about all the wild trout streams in the region. This is just a very general list, and there are no doubt many more that will get the job done. Wild Trout Streams 1. Barren Fork Creek Prime Water- Twin Springs to mouth Description: This stream has a pretty low population of wild trout. With that said, you can find a few in some of the better holes. This is not a destination stream, but if your in the area anyway, you may as well give it a try. Public access is from Twin Spring downstream for about ½ Mile. 2.Mill Creek Prime Water- Wilkin Spring to mouth Description: This creek has a pretty respectable population of wild trout in the first few miles below Wilkin Spring. It’s not the stream it once was, but it’s definitely worth the trip if you like a good challenge. The MDC provides access below Wilkin Spring, and the Forest Service has an access on the stream’s lower reaches. Bohigian Conservation area provides access to the upper reaches. Stream improvements here have resulted in some excellent fishing. 3. Spring Creek Prime Water- Relfe Spring to mouth Description: This creek has a decent trout population, and is very pretty. Also, it’s nearby several other trout streams, including Mill and Little Piney Creek. It’s definitely worth a few hours. There is public access on a nice stretch of stream toward the lower end. 4. Little Piney Creek Prime Water- Highway 63 Bridge to CR 7460 Bridge (Vida Slab) Description: This is an pretty nice creek, with a respectable wild trout population. It used to be managed as a put and take fishery, but they stopped stocking it a few years ago, and instituted a length limit. Sure enough, the trout began spawning, and the Little Piney became a viable wild trout stream. Access is at the Highway 63 Bridge, Lane Spring Recreation area, and Vida Slab. There is a fair amount of quality water here, about seven miles in all. Stream surveys in the past have found between 100 and 200 trout per mile. The trout tend to be bunched up in pockets of good habitat. If you find a really good run, you can catch fish all day. But it is also possible to spend a fair amount of time casting over unproductive water. 5. Crane Creek Prime Water- City of Crane to Quail Spur Road Description: Home to one of the last pure populations of McCloud Rainbow trout, Crane Creek is an excellent fishery. Trout numbers are high, and this little stream is known around the country for its excellent fishing. Public access is found at the Crane City Park, and the Lower Wire Road Access. Unfortunately, some short-sighted folks are currently conspiring to dam it up, and form a lake. God forbid! 6. Blue Spring Creek Prime Water- Blue Spring to mouth Description: This tiny little creek is home to a tremendous population of wild rainbow trout. With 290 trout per mile, you won’t find a trout creek in Missouri with more fish. They are very spooky, and difficult to catch. Also, this is a very tiny creek, and backcasting room is non-existant. All except for the first few hundred yards of the creek are publicly owned. Access isn’t a problem. This is a tough creek to fish, but the rewards are there. The fish are mostly small, but there are some real beauties in the 10 to 14 inch range. Flies 1. Woolly Bugger, Olive, White, or Black #10 2. Prince Nymph #14-18 3. Pheasant Tail Nymph #14-18 4. Copper John #18 5. Hare’s Ear Nymph #14-18 6. Elk Hair Caddis #14-18 7. Don’s Crawdad #10 Lures 1. Panther Martin Spinner 1/24-1/32 ounce 2. Rooster Tail Spinner 1/24-1/32 ounce 3. Mepp’s Spinner #0 4. Little Cleo 1/16 ounce 5. Rebel Crawdad crankbait *Note: I'm not trying to "hotspot" any of these streams with this post. I have listed, I believe, every wild trout creek in the state that has public access. This is a list you can find lots of places, there is no "secret" info here.