ozark trout fisher

To answer you question "How is a grabber supposed to know when the next guy will be coming through?"- That's easy-there is pretty much always someone "coming through" on the Baptist Camp stretch of the Current. I'm not sure if you're familiar with it, but that's crowded water, not quite as crowded as a trout park, but not far off. And normal fly or spinner fishing just doesn't ruin the fishing for the next guy in the same way as someone camping a hole with 20 pound line and a huge treble hook. It's rude in just the same way that it would be rude for me to wade out into one of these pools to retrieve a snagged fly. I'm of the opinion, especially on crowded water, that it's important to try not to ruin the fishing for the next person that might be fishing the pool I'm on. What I'm saying, quite simply, is that it might be a nice idea to pick a stretch of stream where they won't be ruining the fishing for as many people. I can think of plenty of creeks that have good sucker populations that just don't have the crowds of the upper Current. It's just that this particular method doesn't work out very well on crowded water, not that I have any real problem with it. And I never made any comment whatsoever about spin or bait fisherman. I'm not sure where you got that from.

I didn't get a survey- I wish I did though. I don't personally place a lot of weight in the theory that those living next to a water should be the only ones that should have a say in it's management. Rivers are resources of the state, not just the folks that live on it's banks. Oneshot, I don't have a problem with you keeping some fish to eat. That's understandable, and I think that the regulations on any given river should allow some common species to be kept and eaten. It's an important part of the process for some people, and I can respect that. But it's also important to keep healthy fish populations in the river for future years... It isn't all about today, and unregulated harvest just isn't sustainable. It's good that the MDC is getting public opinion on the issue of smallmouth bass management. But I hope they leave the final decision to their biologists.

I can't answer that question for you. As long as they are legal, and only going after rough fish, I guess I don't have a problem with it. But it's pretty rude to do it in any area like Baptist Camp where you'll be messing up the fishing for a lot of other people. Nothing against snaggers-you just shouldn't fish crowded water in a way that is going to ruin the fishing for the next guy that comes through.

1/32 ounce silver and gold panther Martin Spinners have been known to work well on every Blue Ribbon stream I've fished. But with low water across MO, spin fishing is probably not going to work really well just now- it just really isn't delicate enough of a presentation for a little wild trout creek this time of year. But as others have said, fly fishing is just the way to go on those streams. I learned to fly fish for trout on a Blue Ribbon creek-the fish aren't picky. Just fish a something like a little #16 BH Hare's Ear or Pheasant Tail Nymph several feet under a very small strike indicator-and sneak up on the fish, because unlike freshly stocked trout, they possess a very healthy fear of humans. And you'll probably do better with 6x tippet or smaller Yes, you may well hook trees and spook fish more fish than you catch the first couple times out. I know I did. But that's just part of the learning process. It's better (in my opinion) to learn to fly fish on honest to goodness wild trout than to start off by learning the bad habits that tame trout park or tailwater fish will teach you. And on the bright side, you won't have to worry about making long casts. And by all means bring the San Juans. It might not be the best fly for this time of year, but I have a feeling you could catch a few on it. Try them in natural colors (brown and red)

No need to be so gloomy about it. No doubt we have plenty of problems to deal with, but the moment we admit that we are going to lose it all is the moment we can be sure that will happen. It's better to get mad and try to fix as many problems as we can than to get depressed about it-and those are really the only two options these days for a fisherman. Cricket, I don't get how so many spin-fisherman think of fly-guys as snobs. It's the bass fisherman that are talking about satellite uplinks, drop-shots, thermoclines, $30,000 boats, and Carolina rigs. I just fish a little brown fuzzy thing under a bobber and wait for said bobber to go under or move upstream. And sometimes I do this wearing funny looking rubber pants.

Nice.

Okay, whatever. I think I am going to be done with this one. It appears to be just at the point where it could go south real quick, and there's no need for that. If you're ever in this neck of the woods, we can have this conversation on the water-I'll put you in the front of my canoe and I bet it'd be a lot more civil and honest-it's easy to go out other people on a forum, I'm just as guilty about that as others.

I got ya. But the flip side of that is you can't let the fly hang in the current below you if you're using split shot. I know that doesn't sound like a big deal, but if you fish out the swing you'll pick up a lot of fish that way. But then sometimes dredging with a lot of weight is the way to go- I'm kind of biased because I'm prefer not to chuck and duck if I can avoid it.It takes a lot of the fun out of it for me. Chuck and duck nymphing is one of those things that I'm fine with when it's working, but gets old pretty darn quick when it's slow. The fly cast is an important part of it for me.

I don't think there is any set number you can say is right. There are too many variables involved. Current speed, depth, whether or not you're using split shot and how much, whether the fish have their noses to the bottom or if they're willing to go after a fly higher in the water column. Can I say one more unrelated thing as well? It seems the consensus these days that split shot is a necessary part of any nymph rig. But I only use it about half of the time. I prefer to allow the fly to sink on a long drift if I can. Of course I use split shot in fast water, but in the slower pools, I usually prefer to let the fly sink naturally and get a nice long drift. Forgoing split shot also allows you to fish out the swing if you want, and twitch the fly a few times in the current below you. It's surprising how often that'll draw a strike.

Yikes.... A 16' leader Gavin? I'm not the greatest fly fisherman, but isn't that pretty difficult to work with? I've always thought of 12' as being the absolute maximum I go to in low clear water-maybe 13' if fish are exceptionally picky. Mostly down on the Current I fish 9 1/2 to 10 feet for nymphs, and 10.5-12' for dries, and that almost always seems to be enough to catch fish except in the slowest, glassiest water. But I'd use longer leaders than I do if I thought there was any way I could make it work, and I'm not denying that may work better for the larger, more difficult trout.

Okay, let's just say you're right. Let's say that the Mississippi River fish moved up the Mississippi to the Meramec. Still, it is almost certain that even given that scenario, the dams on the Missouri River was the determining factor that allowed the migration. I believe you mentioned that in your last post. Dams are man-made. Therefore, if a dam being built on the upper Missouri River allowed spotted bass to move into the Meramec River, then spotted bass are in the river for man-made reasons. That (at least in my opinion) would make them a non-native species. And certainly the MDC believes they are non-native and a problem. "Why are you so hell bent on changing the rules on a stream that you won't ever fish? Or at best you may fish it once every couple of years." This is a quote from you earlier in this thread Chief. Apparently you are of the opinion that those who don't fish a water much shouldn't have much say in it's management. But you don't feel that way when it comes to the Meramec or the Bourbeuse, which I doubt you spend a lot of time fishing. I think it's kind of a double standard.

I agree with Al Agnew 100%, and only have one point to add. Meramec system spotted bass taste great alongside fried potatoes. I make that claim from a great deal of personal experience, as well as from highly scientific data...

Little #16-18 Beadhead Hare's Ear Nymphs are my favorite fly on the upper Current and in Montauk. Dead drift them deep under a small strike indicator-some areas you'll need to add split shot and others not. Where there is a deep slot by the bank with a fallen tree or a boulder or something, there will be lots of fish. The little pocket water stretches will also produce trout. Other flies that work well-small orange and pink egg patterns, Olive Mohair Leeches, and Olive Woolly Buggers. Hoppers are still out, so you'll want some hopper patterns too, especially for mid-day. Soft hackles can be really good too. My best piece of advice is to fish outside the park. There are still plenty of fish, and much less competition. Also other fisherman tend to be a lot more courteous once you get below the park boundary. I'd suggest you go out the back door of the park and hit the water around Tan Vat or Baptist Camp- or better yet go further down and fish Parker Hollow. With the low water, the best fishing will probably be in the deep pools, but don't ignore the riffles and pocket water. Be ready for Olive hatches as well. A #18 or 20 Adams will usually get it done, but it pays to have some smaller and more accurate patterns around as well. And you'll always need some Elk Hair Caddis any time you're anywhere near the Current River, #12-16. And a #14 or 16 Parachute Adams will sometimes take fish when there isn't a lot of bug activity. Unless conditions change, you'll need a long (10.5 to 12 foot) leader tapering to at least 6x and maybe 7x in the slow water. Also, you'll want to keep your indicators small and your drifts good.

I've got to say I am the same way. I dearly love the Ozarks (and will always come back to fish them), but one day I am going to move back to the West Slope of Colorado and the Yampa River. I told myself that I would the day I moved away and it's going to happen. But for now I'll enjoy the beautiful rivers around here.

Sounds good. I'll be down.

Keep the shadow bass. Coldwater has no room to talk in the avatar department Coldwater, I can't argue with the score, except that I'd like to add another player. You're at -5, but you could be at 15 if you changed the avatar (you don't have any fish to show I guess, not even a washed out stockie .) For now I'll keep the washed out Busch Wildlife trout. Hopefully I'll get a better one to put up next weekend down at the Eleven Point.

I was planning on coming down there to wade and fish next weekend around the 19 bridge-I'm kind of dissapointed to hear that the river is getting really low. If it keeps dropping, should I go elsewhere? I don't want to bother the fish if they are going to be stressed from the low water. I don't mind tough fishing with smaller flies and lighter tippets, I just don't want to be hurting anything.

I'm with you there. Post all you want about the officially managed trout streams, but keep the rest quiet to anyone but your closest friends.They are too fragile and too special to be spoken of on a public forum except in the most vague terms.

I agree that this thread has entirely jumped the shark-but I have a feeling we're just getting started. We could challenge the previous record for most pages in a thread.... What's next? Gigging, smallmouth management, politics ?

Honestly, the small size of the spotted bass doesn't bother me. It's more the fact that I know they are making the smallmouth bass population in those stream stretches unhealthy. And you pointed out that there are far more stretches of stream in Missouri with smallmouth than spots, and you'd be right. But when it's your home water that's being taken over mile by mile by a non-native species, it tends to get you a little concerned.

For those who don't feel like googling that, here's the main point of it, straight from the MDC site. "Since the mid-1980s, Conservation Department fisheries biologists have noticed that spotted (Kentucky) bass have increased dramatically in portions of the Meramec, Big and Bourbeuse rivers where they were historically absent. In those rivers, spotted bass rarely seem to reach the 12-inch length limit, grow slowly and have been shown to compete and hybridize with native smallmouth bass. While there is no doubt that smallmouth have been affected by habitat alterations, the continual march of spotted bass further upstream each year concerned biologists. Smallmouth bass numbers appear to have declined in many areas and biologists believe spotted bass may be part of the reason. In response, the Conservation Department removed the minimum length limit on spotted bass and increased the daily limit to 12. Anglers in these three rivers can help slow the increase of spotted bass by learning spotted bass identification and taking some home." The MDC seems concerned about spots in the Meramec basin, and they don't have any reason to be causing a false alarm. And everything they say is 100% backed up by my experience on these rivers.

Yes, coexisting in a way that is devastating to the native species. Asian Carp and native species are also co-existing in the Mississippi River, but I can promise you it's not a good thing for the catfish, paddlefish, and sturgeon. The fact is, spotted bass are taking over smallmouth habitat. Some smallmouth still manage to eek out a living in the stream stretches that spotted bass have invaded, but their numbers and size are grossly reduced. In other words, the smallmouth population still exists, but it's no longer healthy. As Eric pointed out, trout don't have the capability of pushing smallies out of nearly the same mileage of water as spotted bass. Spotted bass just don't have nearly as specific of habitat requirements as trout, and therefore have potential to cause much more harm in more stream stretches. Trout must have consistently cold water to survive, but the spots can inhabit anything from the lower ends of big rivers to cool water habitat. And they eat exactly the same food as smallies and spawn in the same areas. The competition is direct. Stream stretches like the middle and lower Bourbeuse and lower Meramec are actually better spotted bass habitat than smallmouth habitat. But smallmouth are the native species, and have always done very well there. But then the non-native spots showed up. The habitat conditions and spawning conditions favor them, so any future "balance" between spotted bass and smallmouth bass is likely to heavily favor the non-native spots. And we are talking about hundreds of miles of water here in the Meramec, Gasconade, and Osage basins. It's a big problem, and I promise you it would be pretty concerning to you if you if these streams were your home waters.

Absolutely. It seems like there are a lot more big trout in shallow water when the light is low-mornings, evenings, and at night. Not many trout that are smart enough to grow large will feed in shallow water mid-day, unless there is something pretty compelling going on in the bug department. You'll also see big trout ease into the shallow, slow, exposed tail-outs at in the evening when there is a good spinner fall going on. No trout with any basic self-preservation instinct would hold in these areas in the day-time, but the bugs are dead, and the fish know they don't have to fight the current to get to them. The extra calories are worth the risk of being in that exposed position for a bit.

Nope, it's worse than that. It's a genuine, urban trout program Busch Wildlife trout.

Drew, I'm not sure about Capps or Hickory, but the Little Piney still does support a quality bass population, and in the some of the same areas where there are trout too. I was just saying that bass can live in the same habitat as trout, not that trout are displacing the bass. Those are two entirely separate arguments. In Little Piney, I think the only thing that has hurt the bass population over the years has been cattle trampling the banks and extensive gravel mining. As for spotted bass, It's pretty clear to those of us who spend a lot of time in the Meramec basin that they nothing short of devastating to the smallmouth population. If you guys saw what was going on in say, the Bourbeuse River, I think you'd agree. We are watching a hundreds of miles of excellent native smallmouth water deteriorate before our eyes. Trout don't do anything even remotely like that to smallmouth.