laker67 Posted September 30, 2009 Posted September 30, 2009 laker, If you had fished in the Meramec River system back in the 50s and 60s, you wouldn't have been catching spotted bass, because they weren't there. They are native in the waters you were fishing when you were a kid, Knowing that the kentucky bass is "native" to the mississippi river basin, I would assume Meramec would be a logical choice for them. Just like the rivers farther north in my home area.
KCRIVERRAT Posted September 30, 2009 Posted September 30, 2009 Just me, but any species that resides on our continent and happens to make there way to new habitat have made themselves native, not invasive. Species from other countries introduced in our neck of the woods, i.e., zebra mussels, asian carp, etc., are the one's that are invasive. HUMAN RELATIONS MANAGER @ OZARK FISHING EXPEDITIONS
eric1978 Posted September 30, 2009 Posted September 30, 2009 Just me, but any species that resides on our continent and happens to make there way to new habitat have made themselves native, not invasive. Species from other countries introduced in our neck of the woods, i.e., zebra mussels, asian carp, etc., are the one's that are invasive. Indigenous (ecology) From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (Redirected from Native species) Jump to: navigation, search Look up Indigenous in Wiktionary, the free dictionary. For other uses, see indigenous. In biogeography, a species is defined as indigenous or native to a given region or ecosystem if its presence in that region is the result of only natural resources, with no human intervention. Every natural organism (as opposed to a domesticated organism) has its own natural range of distribution in which it is regarded as native. Outside this native range, a species may be introduced by human activity; it is then referred to as an introduced species within the regions where it was anthropogenically introduced.
Al Agnew Posted September 30, 2009 Posted September 30, 2009 Just a few corrections to misconceptions... The streams flowing into the Osage River are NOT native spotted bass streams. I'm talking about the Sac, Pomme de Terre, Niangua, Little Niangua, Auglaize, Tavern, and all the creeks flowing into those streams, as well as the main-stream Osage and all the lakes on these streams. However, according to Pflieger, the foremost fisheries biologist in recent history in Missouri, spotted bass were APPARENTLY introduced into the Lake of the Ozarks at some point not long after it was built, certainly before 1940, and they rather quickly populated the Osage and all suitable tributaries, as well as the Moreau, which enters the Missouri just a few miles from the mouth of the Osage. Early records are spotty, but show no spotted bass anywhere in the system prior to about 1940. In doing a lot of research myself into smallmouth native range, I've found only one author, A. J. McClane, who stated that they were not native to the Ozarks. Fact is that they could have reached the Ozarks at the end of the last ice age from either the upper Mississippi, where they are also native, or from the Ohio, where they and spotted bass are both native. But the fact that the only subspecies of smallmouth other than the type species is the Neosho smallmouth, native ONLY to the western Ozarks, certainly argues that they have been in the Ozarks for a long time...you don't get subspecies status in as little as a few hundred years. In fact, it's possible the Neosho smallies were here BEFORE the last ice age, in an enclave of the western Ozarks, and the northern smallies either pushed them out or populated vacant territory in the rest of the Ozarks soon after the last ice age. Certainly every book other than McClane's and every author and biologist I've ever read has considered them a native species to the Ozarks. There is a fundamental difference between birds changing their ranges because of climate change, and fish changing their ranges. Birds are simply much more mobile than fish. They can fly north, or delay their migration. Fish have to have those connections I've talked about. Is it possible that warming water temps have allowed the spots to spread up the Mississippi to the Meramec? Yes, I suppose it is, although water temps would have had to change not on the lower Meramec, which has almost certainly ALWAYS been warm enough for spotted bass, but on the Mississippi, their only possible natural connection. It doesn't really make a whole lot of sense that a rise of a couple of degrees on average, if that, on the Mississippi was enough to change it so that spotted bass could utilize it when they couldn't before. And again, guys, that's the key here. I'll say it again. IF SPOTTED BASS HAD A USABLE CONNECTION TO THE MERAMEC FROM STREAMS WHERE THEY WERE NATIVE, THEY WOULD HAVE ALSO BEEN IN THE MERAMEC LONG AGO. Because the lower Meramec, as well as Big River and the Bourbeuse, have ALWAYS been suitable spotted bass habitat. As for other limitations to smallie growth and populations of larger smallies, that's a whole THIRD thread in itself, and we already have two of them going in this train wreck!
Chief Grey Bear Posted October 1, 2009 Posted October 1, 2009 Just a few corrections to misconceptions... Fact is that they could have reached the Ozarks at the end of the last ice age from either the upper Mississippi, where they are also native, or from the Ohio, where they and spotted bass are both native. That is all I have been trying to say. I won't even begin to argue as to whether they came from the upper Mississippi or the Ohio system. Chief Grey Bear Living is dangerous to your health Owner Ozark Fishing Expeditions Co-Owner, Chief Executive Product Development Team Jerm Werm Executive Pro Staff Team Agnew Executive Pro Staff Paul Dallas Productions Executive Pro Staff Team Heddon, River Division Chief Primary Consultant Missouri Smallmouth Alliance Executive Vice President Ronnie Moore Outdoors
Al Agnew Posted October 1, 2009 Posted October 1, 2009 Understood, Chief, but since the "native American" people also apparently reached Missouri soon after the last ice age, smallies in the Meramec are at least as native as they are...and spots didn't get there until just 25 or 30 years ago!
Chief Grey Bear Posted October 1, 2009 Posted October 1, 2009 "There is a fundamental difference between birds(Native American) changing their ranges because of climate change, and fish changing their ranges. Birds(Native American) are simply much more mobile than fish. They can fly north, or delay their migration. Fish have to have those connections I've talked about. Is it possible that warming water temps have allowed..... OK, OK , no I am not going there....just a little humor. Yes Al, I consider the Smallmouth just as native you and everyone else. Just to but your but, Laker made a very good point that was completly passed over. It is one that I agree with. It is very possible. Now what, what shall the next discussion be........ Chief Grey Bear Living is dangerous to your health Owner Ozark Fishing Expeditions Co-Owner, Chief Executive Product Development Team Jerm Werm Executive Pro Staff Team Agnew Executive Pro Staff Paul Dallas Productions Executive Pro Staff Team Heddon, River Division Chief Primary Consultant Missouri Smallmouth Alliance Executive Vice President Ronnie Moore Outdoors
ness Posted October 1, 2009 Posted October 1, 2009 Now what, what shall the next discussion be........ I dunno.... Obamanomics? Religion? Catch & release? John
FishinCricket Posted October 1, 2009 Posted October 1, 2009 I dunno.... Obamanomics? Religion? Catch & release? I say we go for the last one, since the first one is off limits here and only a fool would argue the second one... cricket.c21.com
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