Boaters Vs Non-boaters

[Bill Babler]

Very interesting thread about the Heartland derby, and the "Pro-Side" vs the Amatuer side. Started this thread, in respect for Ralph and the Heartland. Lets please not pick out particular derbys, or events, when money is on the line and one participant is using his or her own boat and paying the majority of the entry fee, it does not matter what the name of the event is, for the most part it will go as it does with the person in control of the boat and most important the money, being the one who will make the majority of the decisions, good or bad.

Now, lets get to the rat killin. Pro's? For the most part, I don't think so. Yes there are a few. Charlie Campbell, Dave Barker, Bill Beck, Kelly Powers, Jerry McCutchen, Tim Sainato, Tim Fleetwood, Jackie and Jimmy the Davis boys, Wes Endicott, Bobby Sullivan, Robbie Dotson and his Pappy, Rick LaPoint Pete Wenners, Brian Snowden, Buster Loving and that is a very select short list. These guys and a few select others make a huge part of their annual income in the fishing rodeo business. Most of the other 150 to 225 Pros, are just like you, that fish. They work a job all week and for the most part when they come to a water way they have not been on, they struggle.

They get the first cast and they pick the fishin holes for one reason, and for the most part, it is not knowledge, it is desire. They get to pick and throw, cause they ponyed up the bucks for the priviledge. The Funkin Wagnels defines a professioanl as someone that earns at least 90% of their income from the profession they have chosin and have praciticed their craft at that profession for at least 8 yrs. For the most part this is not dudes fishing the boater side of any of our local derby's. These and I say the words with respect are weekend warriors that enjoy competition, but have to be back to work on Monday morning to pay the morgage. Win or lose, it really does not matter, as far as their making a living for their families.

So you ask what can be gained from fishing the non-boater side. Lots, with a capital $$$. Just ask Jeremy Rasnick. if you are smart, and play your cards right, fishing behind one of these guys can net you big bucks, weather they know the water or not. This Winter, I'll write an artilce about fising from the back of the boat, that is for another topic.

I have been guiding almost all my life, and it never fails, that I will learn something from most every person I take, them being a raw beginner, or a seasoned pro. If you are fishing the back of the boat see what your boater is doing, See how he or she fishes particular structure or picks out locations. Catchin fish? Really does not matter, you are seeing a different tecnique and approach. If it works great, if it does not, thats ok too. You have learned something. Guide trips are different. I hate to guide derby fishermen. They are non-appreciative, and for the most part could careless about the fun of catching fish, they want location after location, and 1 keeper per spot. Guide trips for fishermen are more single minded, if it aint' broke, don't fix it. If they are biting, stay and catch them till they quit. Lots more fun, but not what will win you a derby. I don't for the most part care about the size of the fish on my guided fishing tours. 14 inch Jaws are just as good as 18 inch Largemouth. They tug and pull and thats what its all about.

I regress.

When fishing a derby on the non-boater side, there are always fish available to you. There are only a couple of senerio's when this is just not going to happen. The first being pitchin a jig to visible structure. Working a blade to visible structure. Deep fishing trees with a shot or a spoon and that can be over came. If your boater is not fishing like this, you got a great shot. Just cause you cannot throw in front of the boat, is not going to hurt you to the max, you still have a great chance, if your dude is on fish. Another situation, is when your boater is on shallow crankbait fish and is parrelling the bank with a shallow running cranker. Sometimes this is still ok, as one of my good friends fishing out of the back of an Elite Anglers boat kicked the Pro's Arse jerking a rogue on the outside of the boat while the Pro, caught squeeker keepers, mostly bucks, going down the bank with a wart.

Fishing out of the back of the boat is what you make of it. You want to fish the front and make the decisions, pay the money. If not, have fun and learn something from everyone you fish with. I have learned way more on days that I struggle than days that I am all over them.

Derby fishing can be fun. Just cause money is involved, don't let it ruin your day, or let the guy in the front ruin your day. Remember, you could be at work.

On another note, Techo and Donna, you both inspire me. I read and reread every word you honor us with. You both always leave me with a smile and thinking, I wish I would have said that.

Sincerely BB

[denjac]

Sometimes back of the boat is the place to be! Front of the boat pointed into the bank at a 45 degree angel, WATCH OUT you can put the hurt on them running a blade or cranker. Flipping bushes sure the front guy gets the first shot, but alot of times that fish will hit it on the second offering. I always told my non boater to cast ahead of his postion or in front of the boat when I am out of the way. I dont like to have to turn around and go back 30 yards to retrieve his hang up. I never was a stickler for the front is mine and the back is yours. Very windy conditons, the back guy gets to concentrate on hitting his shots, not on keeping the boat on course and wearing down after fighting the trolling motor all day. The back of the boat is a handicap only if your mind makes it so. Sure I have drawn jerks that have the attitude they are God and the front part of the boat is his domain, no problem adapt, and overcome. I have on several occasions told the non boater to get up front with me so I didnt have to worry about not shutting him out and controling the boat on very windy days. 90 % of all the guys I have fished with, boater or non boater have been a pleasure to fish with. I would always rather fish for fun than money. Disclaimer: I am not a professional fisherman nor do I want to be. The above opinions are my own and are not in anyway to be interputed as professional in anyway shape or form..

[dblades]

You know, Bill I've fished a whole lot of "derbies" out of the back of the boat. Fished back seat in the CPAA for three years, have fished several BASS events going all the way back to the Top 100/150s and am always amazed at how people say they are treated bad as back seaters. Personally I've had ONE bad day with CPAA and ONE BASS pro that was a prick. ( It could have been because he had just finished second in the Classic and was still steaming over the lose) So I'd say my bad experiences are maybe 1 percent of all the tournaments I've fished. I've often wondered is it the boaters fault as much as unreasonable expectations that cause the supposed front-ending etc. I think a lot of the co-anglers have unreasonable expectations about fishing from the back, they expect to be "guided".

[Guest csfishinfool]

Ive only had two bad times in the back of the boat. One was a guy who thought every thing I casted at was his, and then threatend to take me back to the dock and "turn me in",the other was a nice guy but planted us on a mud flat on the Mississippi in the BFL regional a couple years back. It took like 4 hrs to get off with the help of the fire department and an air boat. Oh and this last year at the Lake O snow bash BFL my guy turned an ear off his prop. Was about an hour delay but wasn't bad. If you look on the web there is a video of Rick Clunn talking about fishing from the back. His main point was to change the angles from what your pro is doing, and it seemed to work at Truman for me, I boated two keepers and lost two or three on a blade. But Bill is right about most of the guys not being on the water. I'm thinking about fishing the Stren next year and that should take some of that out of play. Its either the stren or boater side of BFL, where the ALL American is on Degrey... that lake is smaller than Pomme!!!

[getfished]

Very interesting thread about the Heartland derby, and the "Pro-Side" vs the Amatuer side. Started this thread, in respect for Ralph and the Heartland. Lets please not pick out particular derbys, or events, when money is on the line and one participant is using his or her own boat and paying the majority of the entry fee, it does not matter what the name of the event is, for the most part it will go as it does with the person in control of the boat and most important the money, being the one who will make the majority of the decisions, good or bad.

Now, lets get to the rat killin. Pro's? For the most part, I don't think so. Yes there are a few. Charlie Campbell, Dave Barker, Bill Beck, Kelly Powers, Jerry McCutchen, Tim Sainato, Tim Fleetwood, Jackie and Jimmy the Davis boys, Wes Endicott, Bobby Sullivan, Robbie Dotson and his Pappy, Rick LaPoint Pete Wenners, Brian Snowden, Buster Loving and that is a very select short list. These guys and a few select others make a huge part of their annual income in the fishing rodeo business. Most of the other 150 to 225 Pros, are just like you, that fish. They work a job all week and for the most part when they come to a water way they have not been on, they struggle.

They get the first cast and they pick the fishin holes for one reason, and for the most part, it is not knowledge, it is desire. They get to pick and throw, cause they ponyed up the bucks for the priviledge. The Funkin Wagnels defines a professioanl as someone that earns at least 90% of their income from the profession they have chosin and have praciticed their craft at that profession for at least 8 yrs. For the most part this is not dudes fishing the boater side of any of our local derby's. These and I say the words with respect are weekend warriors that enjoy competition, but have to be back to work on Monday morning to pay the morgage. Win or lose, it really does not matter, as far as their making a living for their families.

So you ask what can be gained from fishing the non-boater side. Lots, with a capital $$$. Just ask Jeremy Rasnick. if you are smart, and play your cards right, fishing behind one of these guys can net you big bucks, weather they know the water or not. This Winter, I'll write an artilce about fising from the back of the boat, that is for another topic.

I have been guiding almost all my life, and it never fails, that I will learn something from most every person I take, them being a raw beginner, or a seasoned pro. If you are fishing the back of the boat see what your boater is doing, See how he or she fishes particular structure or picks out locations. Catchin fish? Really does not matter, you are seeing a different tecnique and approach. If it works great, if it does not, thats ok too. You have learned something. Guide trips are different. I hate to guide derby fishermen. They are non-appreciative, and for the most part could careless about the fun of catching fish, they want location after location, and 1 keeper per spot. Guide trips for fishermen are more single minded, if it aint' broke, don't fix it. If they are biting, stay and catch them till they quit. Lots more fun, but not what will win you a derby. I don't for the most part care about the size of the fish on my guided fishing tours. 14 inch Jaws are just as good as 18 inch Largemouth. They tug and pull and thats what its all about.

I regress.

When fishing a derby on the non-boater side, there are always fish available to you. There are only a couple of senerio's when this is just not going to happen. The first being pitchin a jig to visible structure. Working a blade to visible structure. Deep fishing trees with a shot or a spoon and that can be over came. If your boater is not fishing like this, you got a great shot. Just cause you cannot throw in front of the boat, is not going to hurt you to the max, you still have a great chance, if your dude is on fish. Another situation, is when your boater is on shallow crankbait fish and is parrelling the bank with a shallow running cranker. Sometimes this is still ok, as one of my good friends fishing out of the back of an Elite Anglers boat kicked the Pro's Arse jerking a rogue on the outside of the boat while the Pro, caught squeeker keepers, mostly bucks, going down the bank with a wart.

Fishing out of the back of the boat is what you make of it. You want to fish the front and make the decisions, pay the money. If not, have fun and learn something from everyone you fish with. I have learned way more on days that I struggle than days that I am all over them.

Derby fishing can be fun. Just cause money is involved, don't let it ruin your day, or let the guy in the front ruin your day. Remember, you could be at work.

On another note, Techo and Donna, you both inspire me. I read and reread every word you honor us with. You both always leave me with a smile and thinking, I wish I would have said that.

Sincerely BB

Bill, great thread concerning the boater/nonboater issue. I went back and reread the entire thread about the "Heartland Derby" and I never did see anywhere a disrespectful comment about anyone named Ralph or the Heartland Derby. I guess I just don't understand your second sentence in this thread. Are you of the opinion that something was posted disrespectful or in a disrespectful way. If I have made those posts I apologize. We were having a nice discussion it seemed.

[Bill Babler]

GF No not at all. Just wanted to make the point that reguradles of the derby or whom ever is running any type of a boater vs nonboater issue, the circuits are pretty much the same in that reguard. No one circuit is better or worse than the other. This at one time was not true. In the mid to late 90's, CPA was just flat as cut throat as it gets. Lots of bad apples were weeded out and it is not only to be commended, but a very good example of a fair and sportsmans like attitude, that it displays today. Another great point is for the nonboater not to go into this thinking it is a guide trip, as it is not. When you are playing for pay, it is, even with a fantastic attitude, every man or woman for him or herself. Carry on.

[dtrs5kprs]

Really hope no one thought I was trying to be negative towards Ralph or the Heartland organization. Tried to be open about not singling any organization out.

This is one of the reasons I just fish. As Bill notes, if you are just fishing (and I find it sort of sad to distinguish the two) I don't have to stop spooning a spot b/c I am catching whites, or stop swimming a smoke grub if the brownies I am catching are short. Cranky little brownies pulling on 6# line will work fine for me, all day.

[Champ188]

dtrs5kprs, I do fish a lot of derbies but I know what you mean about enjoying "just fishing" too. I reach the point every fall where I am longing for derby season to be over so I can just go "fun fishing." I greatly enjoy the competition including all of the prep work that goes into every event but sometimes there's nothing like just kicking back and fishing without all of the pressure, including making some good ol' fall-winter crappie or white bass trips.