Rainbow Spawn Alert!

[Randall]

I don't think the population is quite as dense as everyone would like for you to believe. Don't forget that alot of browns are stocked annually that add to the totals. One thing that nfow has going for it, is the high percentage of c and r fishermen. So with the one percent reproduction and the no kill line of thought, the numbers would maintain, maybe increase. I am glad there are reproducing hatchery trout in some areas. The wild part is mostly someone's vivid imagination.

That sounds reasonable. I think the semantics are a matter of personal interpretation though.

[ozark trout fisher]

I don't think the population is quite as dense as everyone would like for you to believe. Don't forget that alot of browns are stocked annually that add to the totals. One thing that nfow has going for it, is the high percentage of c and r fishermen. So with the one percent reproduction and the no kill line of thought, the numbers would maintain, maybe increase. I am glad there are reproducing hatchery trout in some areas. The wild part is mostly someone's vivid imagination.

I saw the shocking data for the river's Blue Ribbon area, and I couldn't help but noticing that there are something well over 500 trout per mile. I'd say that's a pretty good population.

Just curious Laker, can fish with stocker genes never be wild? Because the naturally reproducing trout act just as wild as any wild trout out west or east. That would be making the case that, for example, the rainbows in the Madison River are not wild, because they are not native. It doesn't fly with me.

[laker67]

I saw the shocking data for the river's Blue Ribbon area, and I couldn't help but noticing that there are something well over 500 trout per mile. I'd say that's a pretty good population.

Just curious Laker, can fish with stocker genes never be wild? Because the naturally reproducing trout act just as wild as any wild trout out west or east. That would be making the case that, for example, the rainbows in the Madison River are not wild, because they are not native. It doesn't fly with me.

I don't know concerning the Madison, OTF. But my opinion about the mcclouds and the missouri strain of trout here would be that they never lose their hatchery genes. I can't compare them to trout in other areas, because I have never fished in other areas. I'm not sure what a "wild" trout looks like compared to hatchery fish.

Your 500 fish per mile is a believable number, unlike the c of c article stating thousands of fish per mile. Kind of a "come on down" gimmick.

[ozark trout fisher]

I don't know concerning the Madison, OTF. But my opinion about the mcclouds and the missouri strain of trout here would be that they never lose their hatchery genes. I can't compare them to trout in other areas, because I have never fished in other areas. I'm not sure what a "wild" trout looks like compared to hatchery fish.

Your 500 fish per mile is a believable number, unlike the c of c article stating thousands of fish per mile. Kind of a "come on down" gimmick.

I just looked at the data for the NFOW, which is linked to on another thread on this site. For the Blue Ribbon area, there are 519 trout per mile (all but 34 rainbows), and in the Red Ribbon area there area there are 1051 trout per mile, all but 83 browns.

I just don't know how it can be stated that fish with hatchery genes can not be wild. Probably 90% of the trout people call wild have at least some hatchery genes around. By this calculation, every single rainbow and brown trout in the mountain west (except for right near the Pacific coast, where rainbows are native) and Appalachian region is nothing more than a naturally reproduced stocker. Even the native cutthroat out west, and the native brookies out east for the most part have hatchery genes in their bloodline somewhere. If every trout with hatchery genes was not wild, there would be only a few remnant populations of trout, all in extremely remote areas, that would be considered wild. Nearly every trout stream or lake in America has at some point in time recieved hatchery trout. In my opinion, any stream born fish is wild. Maybe not native, but wild nonetheless. I have fished in Native trout fisheries in the rocky mountain west, as well as some in the Appalachians, and I can tell you that a wild rainbow here acts no less wild than one anywhere else.

[ness]

Well, I can't just let it go at that. So let me see if this is what really happens. These "native wild trout" will spawn down on the NorFork in Dec and if they survive the first few feet with out being eat, all those eggs will lay around till the water warms up next year and hatch. lol Good grief folks, according to the MDC, less than 1% of the millions and millions of eggs spawned will actually hatch. Now then after they hatch, they will need to survive long enough to grow into a "trout minnow". I ask you what does a big ol brown eat?? ummm lemme see, would that be a minnow, maybe??? So the chances of that spawn going on down on the Norfork now of producing a real live rainbow is so slim it isn't worth calculating. In this day and age of heavy fishing on every trout water in the state (and Ark) catching a "native wild trout" is nothing more than a pipe dream.

But I will go along with you all and watch where I step.

Everybody knows trout are not native to Missouri. I'm not going to pick nits over the definition of wild, but the population of rainbow trout in the NFOW (and Crane, and Blue Springs) are self-sustaining, and have been for decades. Sure, they were originally planted there as stockers, and there's no proving that there haven't been some additional fish dumped in, but the MDC is not stocking rainbows in those waters. They're wild in most everyone's book.

They spawn, and a small percentage of those make it to adulthood, just like native rainbows do in their waters. All fish, for that matter, produce a huge number of eggs because the odds of survival to reproduction age are so slim. Just because the odds are stacked against them doesn't make it ethical to disturb a redd because they're not gonna make it anyway.

Just saying.

I'm not sure why the trout spawn earlier here, but I suspect two things are at play:

(1) Because they can. Spawning earlier means they're farther along in their growth when the warmer temperatures and lower water levels of summer arrive. In higher elevation streams, they have to wait because the temperatures are so low, metabolism is way down and free-flowing water is so scarce. Here, in the Missouri spring creeks, the high-to-low temperature fluctuations are much less dramatic.

(2) Because their ancestors were selected and bred to spawn earlier in the hatcheries. That's harder to argue when Crane rainbows likely predate the human interference, but that may have some influence on the mix.

[Brian Wise]

Rainbow trout have not been stocked in the North Fork of the White since 1965....so really there is not an argument on anything except weather they spawn during the "right time". I have a tendency to believe they do spawn during the right time....because we caught over 30 Saturday

No one has ever tried to argue the "Wild vs. Native" debate but we'll do a little definitions....

Wild Trout=Born in-stream, but placed there by man 1 or 200 years ago (In our case 45 years)

Native Trout=NEVER stocked, placed there by the hand of God.

I think we all can agree they are GORGEOUS...

Brian

[Gavin]

The North Fork of the White is a wild rainbow stream...best one in this state. And the point really isnt debatable...They spawn when they spawn...and I'm not sure what triggers it...photoperiod...temperature...moon phase...genetics.......I'm sure that many factors play a part in it, but you cannot deny that those are wild rainbow trout.....Same can be said for Crane, Blue Spring, & Mill.

The fishing on the NFoW isnt tailwater easy though. 5-10 fish is a pretty good day on the NFoW. Cheers.

[Justin Spencer]

If you have never caught a rainbow on the NFOW I can understand why you might argue all trout are stockers in Missouri. I prefer to call them stream-bred fish as opposed to hatchery fish. To most people I think stream bred means wild, as they were eggs in the stream and survived to adulthood. Right now there are 186 rainbows under 8" per mile in the Blue Ribbon Area(according to MDC), so out of the millions of eggs that are produced very few survive, but if you have ever caught one you realize what a unique resource we have. Until you catch a stream bred rainbow you don't know what you are missing, for those who don't think they are wild, just keep catching your stockers, and leave the "wild trout" to us. You probably couldn't fool them anyways!!

[laker67]

If you have never caught a rainbow on the NFOW I can understand why you might argue all trout are stockers in Missouri. I prefer to call them stream-bred fish as opposed to hatchery fish. To most people I think stream bred means wild, as they were eggs in the stream and survived to adulthood. Right now there are 186 rainbows under 8" per mile in the Blue Ribbon Area(according to MDC), so out of the millions of eggs that are produced very few survive, but if you have ever caught one you realize what a unique resource we have. Until you catch a stream bred rainbow you don't know what you are missing, for those who don't think they are wild, just keep catching your stockers, and leave the "wild trout" to us. You probably couldn't fool them anyways!!

I would prefer "stream bred" over "wild". How many miles in the blue ribbon section, and how many rainbows over 8 inches?

[Brian Wise]

Here is this years trout survey. For the record I will keep saying "Wild" fish....

2009_NFOW_Trout_Population_Summary.pdf2009_NFOW_Trout_Population_Summary.pdf"

The brown in that photo was in the Blue Ribbon water just upstream of River of Life.

Brian